Better Deal - Optimo or VS

[Mulceber]

We are talking $ hundreds of dollars more for a Optimo. I better be able to tell a huge difference.
Is Optimos felt, ribbon, and sweat bands THAT much better.

You do realize that Optimo owns two stores in Chicago whereas Art is working from home? The cost of owning two stores in a major metropolitan area, paying employees, taking business trips to secure the materials you need all add significantly to the cost. Optimo's cost doesn't surprise me one iota.

 

[TheDane]

You do realize that Optimo owns two stores in Chicago whereas Art is working from home? The cost of owning two stores in a major metropolitan area, paying employees, taking business trips to secure the materials you need all add significantly to the cost. Optimo's cost doesn't surprise me one iota.

Quite true! It's two very different operations, and the costs are very hard to compare - but so are the sales volumes probably. And when Art leaves for business trips, his production stops completely. I guess, it takes a very large equation to compare the two operations and their outcome

 

[Tommy]

Hello, All.
I finally got the opportunity to visit Optimo Hats in Chicago. I highly recommend them. Naturally, I found several hats that I would love to have. But I also have to be wise in the use of my dollars. I have noticed that several FL members speak very favorably of the VS hats. How do the hats from these two establishments compare in terms of quality and price? I realize that this is a broad question, but I would appreciate any feedback or discussion.

Having commissioned a few VS's, I did not view them as 'deals'. They were as much emotional purchases as they were logical. Therefore for me it came down to the intangibles, and when they coalesced, I moved forward. Everybody arrives at those on their own terms.

 

[jamespowers]

The difference between the two for me has been the service/repair aspect. I've had work done on old hats by both, with some fine results. On the other hand, Art has never gotten an order wrong, nor has he ever sent me a big hat crammed in a small box. Optimo has done both. They made the wrong one right, for the most part, but Art is still 100% accurate from my experience. Maybe this has to do with operation size. Frank

Same experience I have had. One of the pluses VS has over the other aforementioned is that Art does every hat---HIMSELF. Quality control is at the top of the line. You don't get screwed up edge bindings, crooked blockings or liners, loose ribbons etc.

 

[kaosharper1]

This is no longer the case. Most are all Beaver now(not best for all finishes) the premium is for the Velours and the Silverbelly(pure belly fur Beaver natural and dyed). Pressure from "perceived" superiority led to that , not necessarily better felts.

Is this true? I thought a basic all beaver custom Optimo was now $600 where a VS is $380.

 

[kaosharper1]

You do realize that Optimo owns two stores in Chicago whereas Art is working from home? The cost of owning two stores in a major metropolitan area, paying employees, taking business trips to secure the materials you need all add significantly to the cost. Optimo's cost doesn't surprise me one iota.

From an economics standpoint this shouldn't make a difference. It costs Optimo more than VS to produce a hat of the same quality so he charges more. Is that a "good deal" or a good value to the end consumer? He evidently can do that because there is a perception that what Optimo produces is worth the extra cost. If A and B both produce widgets, but A charges more because his costs are higher is it reasonable that a consumer will pay for that? Yes, if there is an intrinsic value that comes from prestige or an intangible like design. But the fact that his costs alone are higher does not justify that he could get away with charging more for a similar product. The "similar product" is the caveat. If the perception is that Optimo produces a product worth that high a premium (and it is substantial) then market conditions are satisfied.

 

[delectans]

The difference between the two for me has been the service/repair aspect. I've had work done on old hats by both, with some fine results. On the other hand, Art has never gotten an order wrong, nor has he ever sent me a big hat crammed in a small box. Optimo has done both. They made the wrong one right, for the most part, but Art is still 100% accurate from my experience. Maybe this has to do with operation size. Frank

Same experience I have had. One of the pluses VS has over the other aforementioned is that Art does every hat---HIMSELF. Quality control is at the top of the line. You don't get screwed up edge bindings, crooked blockings or liners, loose ribbons etc.

A real display of class.

I can assure you(also from experience) that no hatter is 100%. This manner of venting is hardly constructive, and frankly, unbecoming of the gentlemanly discourse that is the norm for our community.

 

[jamespowers]

A real display of class.

I can assure you(also from experience) that no hatter is 100%. This manner of venting is hardly constructive, and frankly, unbecoming of the gentlemanly discourse that is the norm for our community.

It is not venting it is the truth. Ask for an honest opinion and you get this.

 

[winter_joe]

This is not gonna turn into the hat etiquette thread as well? Both have pluses and minuses. Both are very skilled at there respective business. Both have a 1,000 dollar hat, it's just art has a more affordable line of felt for any kind of hat. From an elegant dress hat down to a beater hat to protect you from the sun. Optimo has specialty finishes and different types of felt but only at a certain price for all custom orders, and you can use them as a beater if you wish but for that kinda money I paid for mine it's strictly a dress hat.

 

[Tomasso]

I can assure you(also from experience) that no hatter is 100%.

Yep, both hatters under discussion have shipped less than stellar goods and both have made good on their missteps. To suggest otherwise would be disingenuous.

 

[rlk]

I'm saying Optimo does not charge more for Beaver than its basic felt price which was the case when the 1000 was Beaver and others were blends--yes it is more than Art's Winchester Beaver pricing. There are a number of different weights and variations as well as a different manufacturer so they are not direct equivalents however. All Beaver felts are not alike and felt accounts for only so much of the pricing. Borsalino used to charge twice as much for their best Velour(and more for any Velour) as their Beaver felt.

 

[bowlerman]

I think it's clear that in both cases you're paying for a hat made by a human, using the best resources and techniques each of them are capable of. Both operations amaze me. I find myself lusting after just about everything anyone posts here by either of them. I can't imagine a niche market like this would support a huge operation of mass produced hats in the first place, so I'm not particularly swayed by the fact that Graham has employees and two rents to pay.
I'd like to steer this back in the direction of discovering what values and personal styles fit you best from the hatter of your choice.
If I may, I'd like to bring up my experience at d bar j hatters in las Vegas. Last summer I stopped in there on a whim, David held the store open for me while they were about to break for the July fourth weekend, and was happy to show me around the workshop regardless. I did not feel obligated to purchase a hat, but I did so out of pure joy of being there and getting to see his shop first hand and to try on lots of different styles and colors, etc. The hat was only staple felt, and straight off the shelf, not custom made. And I paid a whopping 300 for it. Although I could have ordered a staple custom from somewhere else and paid far less, this instance proved to have enormous value for me personally. This specific instance. I doubt if I would pay that for a staple felt hat in the future, but treasure it nonetheless.
I feel that in my own personal collection of hats, each ends up having its own set of criteria for its value to me.
I feel confident that you will end up with a hat you will love from either maker, and in a few years the 200-300 dollar difference will be negligible.
Now don't all you hatters start jacking your prices on me!

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 

[mayserwegener]

Robert, Good info on the felt differences!

I have always had good results with my Optimo reworks but I make sure to include written details on exactly what I want done. They also end up calling me too. I am probably known as the crazy Austrian Velour guy. I haven't bought any Optimo or VS hats because I am focused on vintage.

Jeff, Nice write up!

 

[Aureliano]

One of the pluses VS has over the other aforementioned is that Art does every hat---HIMSELF. Quality control is at the top of the line. You don't get screwed up edge bindings, crooked blockings or liners, loose ribbons etc.

If I say something, boy would I get in trouble... this stuff is crazy.

 

[rlk]

Same experience I have had. One of the pluses VS has over the other aforementioned is that Art does every hat---HIMSELF. Quality control is at the top of the line. You don't get screwed up edge bindings, crooked blockings or liners, loose ribbons etc.

It is also true that specialization improves quality. No one person is best at all aspects of production. Quality control of any new hats I've seen in the last few years at Optimo is at the highest level(I can't speak to earlier ones )--I see no examples of quality issues on any of the hats in the store or that I have received. Some specialized equipment also enables a superior final product. Hats are not made at Optimo without Grahams input and at times most of his labor. The seamstresses he will admit do a better and faster job on that aspect than he can at this time.

Renovations/cleanings are a different matter and defects can be from the original hat 's condition or the time/price limitations of the process==Unless a total renovation they are not stripping the hat entirely and putting it back together--the price would have to be much higher.

I'll stay clear of dueling criticisms.

 

[DJH]

If I say something, boy would I get in trouble... this stuff is crazy.

I'm staying on the sidelines for this one too, Ale

 

[Mulceber]

From an economics standpoint this shouldn't make a difference. It costs Optimo more than VS to produce a hat of the same quality so he charges more. Is that a "good deal" or a good value to the end consumer? He evidently can do that because there is a perception that what Optimo produces is worth the extra cost. If A and B both produce widgets, but A charges more because his costs are higher is it reasonable that a consumer will pay for that? Yes, if there is an intrinsic value that comes from prestige or an intangible like design. But the fact that his costs alone are higher does not justify that he could get away with charging more for a similar product. The "similar product" is the caveat. If the perception is that Optimo produces a product worth that high a premium (and it is substantial) then market conditions are satisfied.

You mistake me. I wasn't addressing the question of which is the better deal. I made my assessment of the relative merits on page two. I was responding to someone else who was expressing shock that Optimo charges substantially more than VS.

I'm staying on the sidelines for this one too, Ale

I'm with you guys. I don't want to see this turn ugly. Both are incredible hatters and we are very lucky as a community to have them.

 

[Chepstow]

I own nothing of both. For me, it's the point, what I can get for the money!
I have seen both brands only from photos but I know the guys who have an Optimo or have a VS are telling only the best over the hats! What is the question?
Is Optimo the Porsche under the hats or are Art hats, the Porsche? I don't know!
For me is it the price which let me decide. Two VS or one Optimo. ( If the price range is so!) Over the quality, or felt I can say nothing. As customer who owns no hat from both, you will make your thoughts about, what can I get for this money if you have only the chance to order from a online shop.

 

[jamespowers]

I'll stay clear of dueling criticisms.

I don't want to go that route either but suffice to say my first was my last.:eusa_doh:

 

[Landman]

I have never owned or even touched an Optimo hat so I can't comment on their quality or service. I do own quite a few hats made by Vintage Silhouettes. Art Fawcett is a pleasure to work with and his hats are truly amazing. I can call Art and discuss a hat with him and have it in hand in a matter of weeks. The hat will be exactly as I described and will fit me perfectly because he has my conformer size. I find that kind of service and craftsmanship hard to beat for the price of his hats.