Best of Moderns that might compare to vintage

[CRH]

I am a better keeper these days.

I have not killed a hat recently.

but I've done my share

 

[Tone]

So with the majority of custom U.S. hatters using the same felt supplier (Winchester) do any of you know of Factory made hats using Winchester's felt also?
Why aren't they?

On the other hand, what felt does Borsalino currently use? Who's their supplier? Is that out of Portugal? Spain? Or are they using Winchester?

Why isn't Borsalino using Winchester? Or, why aren't U.S. hatters using what Borsalino uses instead? For a more vintage feel and comparison, that is.

Are there US factory hatters using something similar to Borsalino felt? Optimo's hats look to have a slight variation on their felt than Winchester's. What do Optimo use?

 

[Brad Bowers]

Borsalino uses Borsalino felt, or at least they used to, and I'm sure they still do. They probably have no need to sell it to anyone else.

Optimo, I believe, uses felt from Fepsa, in Portugal.

Most U.S. hatters use Winchester because it's made in America and cheaper than importing. A few do import, from Portugal, and some may get theirs from South America.

There is nothing wrong with Winchester felt, quality-wise. By biggest beef is that even their dress weight felt is almost too thick for a vintage-style hat, as you can only pounce it down so far before you hit the core of the felt. Art and Gary White seemed to have solved some of that problem by convincing Winchester to make a lighter-weight felt, but I've never seen it, so I can't say one way or the other, though everybody that's bought one raves about it.

As for Factories, HATCO makes their own felt, so they don't need to buy from Winchester. There is also a small hat factory somewhere in New Jersey, and I think they still make their own felt. I don't remember if Bailey still has a factory in the U.S. or not. Not sure what other factories there are, right off hand.

Brad

 

[Tone]

Thanks, Brad.

Wow. So many variations of felt still being made out there. Each with their own, unique qualities, to be sure. Which one is the closest to vintage fedoras?
Does Hatco put out anything resembling vintage felt on the brands they supply? Actually, do they have varied qualities in the felt they supply? I.E., some Hatco hats seem a bit more vintage-y than others depending on the brand, or perhaps, how they're made/finished at the factory?

 

[rlk]

Fur felt hat body suppliers/manuf. list

http://www.hatsuk.com/furfelthood.htm
Winchester is a wholly owned subsidiary of Stratton.
Doesn't list Chinese companies.

There is/was no single "vintage" type felt.

 

[metropd]

Guerra is by far the nicest production hat company now. Comparable with some good quality vintage hats.

 

[mayserwegener]

There is actually a hat maker in Austria that Dreispitz found that still makes his own felt! There are other Euro sources (Czech, Romania, ect) for felt.

The Zapf hats I mentioned use some felts (sourced from ?) you will not see in modern dress hats. Zapf still employs the same production methods they always have. They are small scale production but not custom hat makers.

Also mechanized processes can / do add to the quality. It would be impossible for a custom hatter to match all the production processes (fur pelts to finished hat) of a mass produced hat. This was even more of the case when hats mattered (HatCo of today is a shadow of the Stetson of yore). Custom finishing and detail work are not the entire story.

>>I don't remember if Bailey still has a factory in the U.S. or not. Not sure what other factories there are, right off hand.

http://www.bollmanhats.com/

We greatly overestimate and even mythologize vintage quality, making large generalizations. One can certainly say the quality of the "average" hat has decreased. How can one possibly define "best" felt given the range of possible fur sources--rabbit(wild or not), hare ,muskrat,nutria, beaver,mink, etc......) thickness,stiffness,weight,length of fur and degree of smoothness the hatter aims for. Some may be better for particular uses, some preferred for style purposes and some desired for entirely subjective reasons. As to chemicals, Mercury was banned in the USA for hats in 1941, and most of us would consider many hats made after that date to be fine quality products. Many of the vintage hats beloved here were merely decent quality mass-produced products of their time, more remarkable for their style than a hypothetical felt "quality". There are only a limited number of sources currently for felts so I would imagine that some of the same raw materials go into hats of a wide range of price and perceived quality. Any piece of felt can be pounced and some are not intended to be. Some mass-production is of a very high standard and some "custom" hatters can be merely more expensive. The felt issue is really fuzzy. As a specific example, I have 7 Borsalino hats,1930's-1990's, and I can honestly state that no two have the same felt(requiring no particular expertise to detect). How can one decide which is best? Obviously some things are near-cardboard junk(even vintage examples exist). Construction quality issues are a bit more obvious. There is always a range of quality at any time not inextricably linked to price alone.

+1

 

[barrowjh]

Not possible to compare

I have never held a Guerra, but I think Beaver Brand's production is performing better than Hatco or Borsalino regarding quality of fit/finish, plus, you can customize a Beaver Brand - they will build a hat to order (I have two) within a menu of choices regarding grade of felt, color, crown block, brim width, ribbon treatment, and brim edge, etc. Their felt hat blanks are imported, and at one point thefedorastore (vendor) stated that the Beaver Brand pure beaver felt was the same as Borsalino's, but they are no longer claiming that.

Winchester's primary line of business is police / military, relatively thick (tough) felt (similar to a working cowboy's hat), meeting specs for color fastness, etc. The dress weight and lite felt production volume for custom hatters might be significant to total volume, but no single custom hatter would be significant to their volume. Greg Fiske explained to us that they had worked with the fur processors in Portugal, tweaking the amount of chemical used in carroting (the stage where mercury was once used), to the point where the fur just would not bond (would not felt), and then added back to reach an optimum fur in terms of soft feel.

The Winchester lite felt, per the custom that I obtained from Art Fawcett, comes the closest to matching the softness and plush feel of my top-shelf Borsalino and Stetson hats. In fact, the only vintage felts that really out-perform the Winchester lite in those respects are felts that had been through the wringer over the years; apparently cleaned and blocked several times before I got them, and both had to be sent off for refurbishment (one to Graham at Optimo, and one to Mike Moore at Buckaroo).

I have one top-shelf Borsalino that appears to have never been through any clean/blocking, and was in exceptional shape when I got it, and it's felt is equally as stiff as the Winchester Lite felt. The Cobalta:

 

[mayserwegener]

Winchester's primary line of business is police / military, relatively thick (tough) felt (similar to a working cowboy's hat), meeting specs for color fastness, etc. The dress weight and lite felt production volume for custom hatters might be significant to total volume, but no single custom hatter would be significant to their volume. Greg Fiske explained to us that they had worked with the fur processors in Portugal, tweaking the amount of chemical used in carroting (the stage where mercury was once used), to the point where the fur just would not bond (would not felt), and then added back to reach an optimum fur in terms of soft feel.

The Winchester lite felt, per the custom that I obtained from Art Fawcett, comes the closest to matching the softness and plush feel of my top-shelf Borsalino and Stetson hats. In fact, the only vintage felts that really out-perform the Winchester lite in those respects are felts that had been through the wringer over the years; apparently cleaned and blocked several times before I got them, and both had to be sent off for refurbishment (one to Graham at Optimo, and one to Mike Moore at Buckaroo).

I have one top-shelf Borsalino that appears to have never been through any clean/blocking, and was in exceptional shape when I got it, and it's felt is equally as stiff as the Winchester Lite felt. The Cobalta:

But felt thickness, feel, finish, ect are subjective. I have vintage dress hats of very high quality with thick felt and various finishes. My profile pic 30s Hückel fedora is a good example. The felt is thick / dense (not sure of the fur type - most likely rabbit/hare with maybe some beaver or nutria) and not pliable (by design) but it is of super quality and feel / finish but maybe it isn't a top-shelf hat. Long hair rabbit/hare finishes are not the same as pounced beaver / nutria but they can be of equal quality or better. There all types of felts (fur type(s), thickness, finish, ect) of high quality used in dress hats not just pounced pliable beaver or nutria.

 

[Aureliano]

On a recent visit to Worth & Worth in NYC I had a chance to try on some Guerras, made in Italy. I particularly liked one in a chestnut color, a not so common color, but very rich looking. The hat was finished very well and was priced at least $125. less than an equivalent new Borsalino and was a much nicer hat. Guerra hats are definitely worthy of a hat-lover's consideration.

I Agree. I own two beautiful Guerra 1855 I purchased from Worth & Worth. A The felt quality is superb, a million times better than modern Borsalinos.

 

[mayserwegener]

I Agree. I own two beautiful Guerra 1855 I purchased from Worth & Worth. A The felt quality is superb, a million times better than modern Borsalinos.

I have a bunch of modern Guerra hats of all different styles and felt finishes. I have to agree they make one of the better modern production hats. I am not a big fan of their sweats though. I am pretty sure they are sourcing their felts and probably even some of the production.

I previously mentioned felt thickness and pliability is not a end all regarding felt quality. I know this is a Borsalino and Italian hat makers trade mark but that type of felt doesn't always lend it self to a particular hat style or design. For example I think a high quality thicker / some what dense less pliable felt makes a better Homburg but in the end this just my opinion.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

In the Golden Era, Belgian felt was the best in the world. Does Belgium still produce felt for hats? If so, is the quality still high?


.

 

[Lefty]

When I talked to Gary White, he said that the best felt being made today is from Poland. He had a large board of color swatches of the brand (I wish I could remember it) with at least 80 different colors. Gary expressed a fondness for Habig, but I don't know if that was it.

 

[mayserwegener]

When I talked to Gary White, he said that the best felt being made today is from Poland. He had a large board of color swatches of the brand (I wish I could remember it) with at least 80 different colors. Gary expressed a fondness for Habig, but I don't know if that was it.

Habig (Austria) went out of business in the 1980s. Barbara Habig still uses the name for modern designer hats through some agreement with Mayser.

http://www.putyourhaton.com/

I am not sure if Habig every produced felt (my guess is they did at some point) but their hats were world class. I have many of them in all different types of styles.

In the Golden Era, Belgian felt was the best in the world. Does Belgium still produce felt for hats? If so, is the quality still high?

.

I am not aware of any but it would be nice to know for sure. I know there is production in Slovenia but can't remember the company and location. Dreispitz actually visited the place but didn't get to the factory.

 

[Dreispitz]

The factory in Slovenia is called Sesir. I was told by the curator of the local museum that they do and did a lot export business. They also did make hats for Borsalino.

 

[mayserwegener]

The factory in Slovenia is called Sesir. I was told by the curator of the local museum that they do and did a lot export business. They also did make hats for Borsalino.

Thanks! I think they might still make hats for Mayser.

 

[Dreispitz]

Talking of which, a key factor to make and finish high quality felts and also other natural fabrics in the past was the softness of water. That is why there are so many felters in the European alps! There you have soft water carrying springs and currants, by nature. The same is for beer.

Hm, some people say Belgian beer is good. Well, if the felt is

 

[bakers44]

The only two variables that matter to me are,

Durability: how long it takes for the felt to develope holes, ect.

and

Denseness: how much water can the hat take before it starts losing shape.

If the hat lasts a long time, and I can go out in the rain I'm happy.

 

[rlk]

When I talked to Gary White, he said that the best felt being made today is from Poland. He had a large board of color swatches of the brand (I wish I could remember it) with at least 80 different colors. Gary expressed a fondness for Habig, but I don't know if that was it.

http://www.polkap.pl/index-a.htm

 

[rlk]

The factory in Slovenia is called Sesir. I was told by the curator of the local museum that they do and did a lot export business. They also did make hats for Borsalino.

no website,info:
http://textil.stfi.de/partex/detail.asp?ID=60114&bi_lang=6

Cortaderia,the Portuguese supplier has an interesting website:
http://www.cortadoria.pt/