Best currently available denim, for the money and overall?

[Melvin]

Just got my first new jeans in a while this year. I occasionally bought the odd pair on sale over the preceding decade but this year I bought a bunch of pair. Although I like the worn in/patched/lived in look, things were really getting threadbare.

Quality domestic choices were limited. Japanese export jeans met the specs of the 501s I remember but were 10 times the price I used to pay.

I wound up catching a 75% end of season sale and getting some very nice made in USA Lee selvedge jeans and some of Big John's top of the line, made in Japan selvedge jeans. The cut and quality of finish on the Big Johns are impressive. It got me looking into denim again.

I'd love to check out some of the 19 ounce plus heavy denim out of Japan nowadays. Then again domestic companies like Round House and Pointer have expanded their denim options and can cost less than some Levi's from Guatemala.

What's best and best for the money?

What's good? What's not? What do people here wear?

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Have you searched the forum? There are many denim threads already. Have a look in the outerwear section too.

It depends if you want a vintage fit or a modern fit.

 

[Edward]

My favourite US made jeans were Prison Blues. Not expensive in the wider scheme of things. Very hardwearing, great , 14oz, fifties cut. Not selvedge, though, if that matters to you. Looking further afield, check out one of our own Floungers' line: http://www.simonjamescathcart.com/

 

[Grayland]

Since you said you were looking at some of the Japanese 19 oz denim, take a look at Unbranded 21 oz Japanese denim. They have 3 different fits and they cost $110. Gustin also offers affordable heavyweight denim.

http://blueowlworkshop.blogspot.com/2013/04/denim-fades-unbranded-21oz-heavyweight.html

 

[DeaconKC]

The line called Riggs by Wrangler are super comfortable and last forever. I am a Field Parole Agent, in and out of all sorts of places and they hold up very, very well.

 

[Blackadder]

Kojima Genes
http://eshop.kojima-genes.com/shopbrand/002/002/X/#.VLLEIyuUd8E

23oz to 29oz

 

[Melvin]

Since you said you were looking at some of the Japanese 19 oz denim, take a look at Unbranded 21 oz Japanese denim. They have 3 different fits and they cost $110. Gustin also offers affordable heavyweight denim.

http://blueowlworkshop.blogspot.com/2013/04/denim-fades-unbranded-21oz-heavyweight.html

I tried some. The rise was too low for my tastes. I think it was the skinny cut. I'm not sure about the rise on the other styles.

I don't understand the fad for low rise jeans. Even if you're not fat the waistband will press on your hips in the back and make you look like you have flab unless your body fat's well under 10%. I also physically felt like the jeans were falling down and found myself reflexively trying to pull them up.

There are a number of interesting heavy denim choices on Rakuten right now which are more affordable than they used to be considering the dollar to yen exchange rate. I've never owned more than 14 ounce or so.

I've always wondered but have never been able to find out: Were Levi's ever heavier?

Fade patterns on the heavier jeans seem more clearly defined and I'd also think they'd last a very long time. I'd like to get a pair and work on seeing how lived in looking they could become.

As for the Wranglers what does that type cost and what's availability? What's the cut? Do they use the broken twill denim? I believe they're completely outsourced now. How do they compare to Wranglers from the 1990s?

I guess part of the value of this forum is as a resource to find out other peoples' experiences with products so informed choices can be made. It's easy to look at a site like Amazon or Rakuten and see what's available. Although those sites have reviews I think people here like clothing better and might have a more instructive comparative perspective.

That said I just wonder what people have had experience with and what they've enjoyed using. There's so much denim out there now it's hard to get a handle on it all.

 

[Edward]

I know exactly what you mean about the discomfort of lowrise. When I was in my teens, we lived notg too far from the Lee factory shop in Northern Ireland (long since gone, as the company pulled all manufacturing inthe Six Counties some time in the nineties). Their idea of a second was really picky, so you could get something virtually flawless (nothing that a couple of months of wear and living with a catg wouldn't quickly cause anyhow) for about the third of the going rate forf anything else. Sadly, I had to give up on them almost immediately because of that exact reason. Never took to 501s either, owing to the low waist.

My understandingb has always been that the heavy-heavy denim fad is a very recent thing, and that original, vintage jeans were often as light as 8oz, but I claim no particular expertise here.

Another option you might consider is Hepville, the German fella on eBay. Bela makes great caps, I have a few; never tried his leans, but they look great in photos, and I'd have no reason to doubt their quality. He'll only work with max 18oz, though; his considered opinion is that anything heavier just isn't worth the bother it takes to stitch.

 

[winterland1]

Here are a couple threads on what I consider to be a good bargain for selvedge denim.
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?79715-Lawless-Denim
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?70973-Gustin-Jeans-Selvage-Denim-made-in-SF

 

[Stearmen]

My understandingb has always been that the heavy-heavy denim fad is a very recent thing, and that original, vintage jeans were often as light as 8oz, but I claim no particular expertise here.

I have to question that? I was talking to my neighbor who is over 70, and latter to my older sister, and we can all remember when you would get a new pair of Levi's, they were like heavy cardboard, the joke was, they could stand up on there own. You had to wash them at least once to even put them on. Even after a few washings, they were hard to put on because of how non compliant they were. They also were a lot tougher then the new ones!

 

[Edward]

I have to question that? I was talking to my neighbor who is over 70, and latter to my older sister, and we can all remember when you would get a new pair of Levi's, they were like heavy cardboard, the joke was, they could stand up on there own. You had to wash them at least once to even put them on. Even after a few washings, they were hard to put on because of how non compliant they were. They also were a lot tougher then the new ones!

There was a discussion about the 'stand-up' quality of old new denim round here somewhere a few months ago... I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the stiffness had as much or more to do with the denim back in thed day coming raw/unwashed as it did the weight of the cloth itself?

Certisnly older 501s seem to have been harder wearing... in recent years they've chopped and changed what a 501 is to maintain itsp osition as a high volume unit shifter. Definitely the quality has gone down.

 

[tropicalbob]

I'd be very interested in an answer to this. I remember as early as 1971 a friend commenting that Levi's had really gone down in value, and I sometimes think I had Levi's with a double layer of cloth. This sounds like a job for Dinerman.

 

[Blackadder]

I have to question that? I was talking to my neighbor who is over 70, and latter to my older sister, and we can all remember when you would get a new pair of Levi's, they were like heavy cardboard, the joke was, they could stand up on there own. You had to wash them at least once to even put them on. Even after a few washings, they were hard to put on because of how non compliant they were. They also were a lot tougher then the new ones!

I think he is referring to the really old jeans from 1800s. According to Levi's their original jeans from say 1870 to 1900 are made of 9 oz denim. The weight gradually increases reaching 14 to 15 oz in the 1940s. Those are also unwashed jeans also known as raw denim that come starched hence very rigid.

 

[Blackadder]

Wonder if this helps.
http://www.rawrdenim.com/2014/10/shuttle-vs-projectile-looms-whats-the-difference/

 

[Melvin]

Wonder if this helps.
http://www.rawrdenim.com/2014/10/shuttle-vs-projectile-looms-whats-the-difference/

My 1990s made in USA 501s were made of projectile loom, non-selvedge denim. The fades are nice and quality is good. I think unless you're really attentive to slubbiness or dyeing methods that yield fast or unusual fades I'm not sure the looms make much difference. It seems more limited run stuff is made on them but that's just because expensive, exotically detailed denim is limited run by nature and projectile looms aren't necessary. For some the selvedge line represents a kind of secret show of status that most people are unaware of. The selvedge jeans I own have other nice detailing because they're limited run and more expensive, not because selvedge is necessarily better.

Still doesn't explain the vast anecdotal evidence Levi's and other U.S. brands used to offer thicker denim. Perhaps the fabric was starched differently but it's unusual to have a lot of people remembering something the same way unless it's true.

 

[Blackadder]

I agree. The article does not say that projector loom is bad. I have some 90s made in USA 501s too. The indigo used on the contemporary Levi's is indeed different given the way the jeans fade which begs the question of the composition and naturalness of the indigo. I have nothing against non-selvedge jeans as I love boot cut jeans like 517 and I hate it when those Japanese jeans bleed all over my boots. But then they start making very affordable selvedge jeans and suddenly the contemporary Levi's seem outclassed. Apart from the possible change of indigo formula and the starch you mentioned, the cotton threads could also be quite different.

 

[Melvin]

I notice Levi's has just put "made in the USA" selvedge STF 501s on their website at $148. There are only two catches.

- The cotton is imported.

This is weird because the supposed reason for the release is the 100 year anniversary of working with Cone Mills. It's only 12 ounce cotton as well.

- They only come in 34 length

This is weird because most who'd buy them would just cuff them and/or get the hem stitched after the first couple soaks or washes. I doubt anyone over 6 feet tall can wear them and still have the hem touch their shoes.

Did anyone try the Brooks Brothers/Levi's made in USA 501s a couple years ago? What were they like?

 

[Edward]

I think he is referring to the really old jeans from 1800s. According to Levi's their original jeans from say 1870 to 1900 are made of 9 oz denim. The weight gradually increases reaching 14 to 15 oz in the 1940s. Those are also unwashed jeans also known as raw denim that come starched hence very rigid.

Ah! Yes.... that would explain the confusion. When I mentioned the 'original' jeans as 8/9 oz, I did indeed mean way back in the 1880s. Even so, it still seems to me that the thing for 21oz and higher is a fairly recent development, as distinct from the 13-15oz weight which seems to have been a norm by the mid twentieth century and carried on since.

In terms of "...for the money" value, these are superb: http://www.sofmilitary.co.uk/us-navy-1940s-deck-jeans-product,14013

At least as good as my Freddie's 1940s, have washed and worn very nicely. Although selvedge and very nice, they're still within a price bracket wheree I'd consider treating them as actual workwear.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I wear Momotaro and Japan Blue. Both of which are owned by the same company and are known for extremely high quality. I used to wear Naked and Famous which IMO is of higher quality than a lot of people give them credit for. I would say they are a pretty good value. However, I think Japan Blue and Rogue Territory are probably some of the best bang for buck brands out there for denim. If you have under $100, then probably Unbranded is a good bet.

If money is no object, then there is a myriad of brands out there. Momotaro is my personal favorite, but there are too many out there to list, with many having different distinctions:

Momotaro is the only fully in-house company and has a lot of unique weft colors such as blue, black, cobalt, and brown, Iron Heart and Samurai have extremely heavy fabrics, The Flat Head jeans fade extremely quickly, Pure Blue Japan is known for their stubby texture and uniquely colored wefts, etc. These jeans cost as much as they do as much for their unique traits as their quality and manufacturing. As such, I think Japan Blue is nearly equal in quality to its big brother Momotaro, but doesn't have some of the extra detailing that Momotaro has such as extra hidden rivets, more weft colors, etc.

I think brands like Japan Blue, Rogue Territory, 3Sixteen, and Sugar Cane offer the best balance between quality and price.

 

[Melvin]

I agree. The article does not say that projector loom is bad. I have some 90s made in USA 501s too. The indigo used on the contemporary Levi's is indeed different given the way the jeans fade which begs the question of the composition and naturalness of the indigo. I have nothing against non-selvedge jeans as I love boot cut jeans like 517 and I hate it when those Japanese jeans bleed all over my boots. But then they start making very affordable selvedge jeans and suddenly the contemporary Levi's seem outclassed. Apart from the possible change of indigo formula and the starch you mentioned, the cotton threads could also be quite different.

I hear you on the 517s.

Got a pair of 1990s U.S. made 517s that outspec most anything out today. 7 belt loops, high rise, deep pockets, heavy stiff denim. Some newer "high end" selvedge jeans don't even have felled inseams. These 517s have very thick double felled inseams. The fabric feels like 15 oz. denim. Very nicely finished.

If Levi's ever made anything with more solid construction I'd like to see it. They're not stiff enough to stand up by themselves but they're pretty heavy. They're red tabs, so they're more detailed than the orange tabs that came out during that era.

The rigid 517s seem to have been cut oversized. Despite being Sanforized they shrink to size after a few washings, as I recall. I haven't washed them yet. After I set in creases sufficiently I'm thinking of eventually soaking them so the shrinkage will be contoured to my fit. Never tried it before. Anyone know if you could use Shrink To Fit techniques on the old Sanforized US made rigid 517s or 505s? They do, after all, seem to shrink noticeably.

Edward, what's the country of manufacture on those 1941 jeans? They look about as nice as the LVC 1933s at a much better price. At this point I think much of the LVC product's made places like Turkey and Vietnam.

And dwth, I checked out some Japan Blue jeans on line. They look nice, traditional and near the price of Unbranded. How's the construction on those? Double felled inseams? Are even their non-selvedge jeans made in Japan?