Best black biker for non-biker?

[Superfluous]

Super, that's just a type of decorative stitching. It doesn't indicate anything at all.

It doesn't indicate anything at all to you. Top stitching indicates a great deal to me. In fact, subtle, well executed top stitching is exactly the type of detail that I personally value and emphasize. In my opinion, it adds an element of craftsmanship, skill, attention to detail and uniqueness that distinguishes one jacket from another. Well executed, subtle top stitching can transform a hunk of leather into an artisan garment. I personally disfavor jackets with no visible stitching. In my personal, subjective opinion, many of the jackets with no visible stitching look bland and lacking in quality. You obviously disagree. We discussed these issues in the prior top stitching thread.

Separately, I am not sure that all top stitching is purely decorative. For example, top stitching adjacent to a french seam may increase the strength of the seam (admittedly, I am not an expert and I may be totally wrong about this).

 

[Monitor]

It doesn't indicate anything at all to you. Top stitching indicates a great deal to me. In fact, subtle, well executed top stitching is exactly the type of detail that I personally value and emphasize. In my opinion, it adds an element of craftsmanship, skill, attention to detail and uniqueness that distinguishes one jacket from another. Well executed, subtle top stitching can transform a hunk of leather into an artisan garment. I personally disfavor jackets with no visible stitching. In my personal, subjective opinion, many of the jackets with no visible stitching look bland and lacking in quality. You obviously disagree. We discussed these issues in the prior top stitching thread.

Separately, I am not sure that all top stitching is purely decorative. For example, top stitching adjacent to a french seam may increase the strength of the seam (admittedly, I am not an expert and I may be totally wrong about this).

But... Every single trucker jacket's got it.

 

[Superfluous]

But... Every single trucker jacket's got it.

You are absolutely right -- top stitching is NOT directly correlated with quality, and plenty of poorly made jackets (and other garments) have assembly line top stitching. However, IMHO, there is a material difference between assembly line top stitching on poorly made garments and bench applied top stitching by an individual craftsman on a top tier, handmade garment. Therefore, clarifying my personal preference, I value well executed, bench applied top stitching on handmade jackets by individual craftsmen (and women (e.g., Julie)), as distinct from assembly line top stitching.

Ivan, please recall that we fully vetted this issue in the prior top stitching thread. I am not alone in my view -- many here value similar top stitching. Lets not burden this thread with our differing views on this tangential subject.

 

[TheMarriedHermit]

"I value well executed, bench applied top stitching on handmade jackets by individual craftsmen (and women (e.g., Julie)..."
Who's Julie?



Sent from my LG-SP320 using Tapatalk

 

[Monitor]

Ivan, please recall that we fully vetted this issue in the prior top stitching thread. I am not alone in my view -- many here value similar top stitching. Lets not burden this thread with our differing views on this tangential subject.

Of course, and I absolutely love top stitching (part of why I'm so obsessed with trucker jackets and yeah, I completely agree with you that it makes one hell of a difference and transforms a jacket into a work of art) but it's just that you've listed it among the objectively crucial aspects that make a quality leather jacket (construction precision, symmetry, etc.), making it perhaps seem as if you're saying that a jacket devoid of this particular detail should be considered inferior... It's just like saying that, I don't know, French seams or back yoke are an essential markers of quality & value.

But yeah, it don't matter, just something that got my attention. Stood out among all the good points. But you'll agree that it still doesn't work on all styles. In fact, I think it would ruin the simplicity of a pure, motorcycle cafe racer.

@TheMarriedHermit , Julie Leitch is the most famous machinist working for Aero Leathers. Rumor has it she made approx. 15,000 jackets by today.

 

[Jejupe]

We can flesh out the list if people have other suggestions. Also, I'd love to know what a custom Langlitz tends to cost, or at least the range.

Ar the moment basic models in black or brown cowhide are between 1000 $ - 1500 $. 100 $ extra for goatskin or 200 $ for cowhide in Other colors.

If you want good bang for the buck have look at their Cascade model. Its 1000 $ in cowhide, measuremade to you, and they will add a dresscollar for free if you like it BEtter that way.

 

[Jejupe]

"I value well executed, bench applied top stitching on handmade jackets by individual craftsmen (and women (e.g., Julie)..."
Who's Julie?



Sent from my LG-SP320 using Tapatalk

Leitch?

I have (at least) one jacket made by her. She does beatiful work!

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/julie-leitch-25-years-at-aero-leather.88672/

 

[Superfluous]

Of course, and I absolutely love top stitching (part of why I'm so obsessed with trucker jackets and yeah, I completely agree with you that it makes one hell of a difference and transforms a jacket into a work of art)

Agreed.

it's just that you've listed it among the objectively crucial aspects that make a quality leather jacket

I listed top stitching as a subtle detail that I personally value and consider. I did not intend to suggest that it was an "objectively crucial aspect" of a quality leather jacket. It certainly is not.

making it perhaps seem as if you're saying that a jacket devoid of this particular detail should be considered inferior.

Definitely not!

In fact, I think it would ruin the simplicity of a pure, motorcycle cafe racer.

Even on cafe racers, I have seen subtle top stitching around the cuff zippers (e.g., double row) that looks great -- also, at french seams. I certainly would not favor triangles at the ends of the chest pockets on a cafe racer.

 

[Bigbenbs]

And so the escalation continues...immensely pleasing

 

[Bigbenbs]

In no particular order, here are a few examples of subtle (and not so subtle) details that distinguish certain jackets (this is not even remotely a complete list):

• Seam construction, symmetry and precision
• Edge construction, symmetry and precision
• Stitch symmetry and precision
• Stitches per inch / spacing between stitch holes
• Top stitching
• Zipper type and installation (including stitching adjacent to zipper)
• Pocket construction and stitching
• Hardware (quality and placement/symmetry)
• Button hole construction
• Leather quality, including grain quality and correction
• Leather weight and thickness
• Leather pliability
• Leather drape
• Leather tanning
• Leather finish
• Leather graining
• Pattern, cut and silhouette

Stating the obvious, the fit of the jacket is the paramount consideration and no combination of the above-referenced factors can overcome a bad fit. That said, once you move beyond the most obvious and essential components, including fit, there are a panoply of details that distinguish leather jackets, including top tier jackets. The relative importance of these details is entirely subjective and there is no correct prioritization or balance. Certain of these details are irrelevant to some, while certain of these details are critically important to others. I am not suggesting that you prioritize or emphasize any particular details, nor that you disregard any individual details. Rather, I am merely suggesting that you understand these details and distinctions so that you can determine what is, and is not, important to you. This way, you can make informed decisions based on well developed personal preferences that are more likely to produce long term satisfaction.

So how per se does one learn about all those nuances without simply owning a lot of jackets and seeing what one likes? I guess trying in a lot of jackets might help. But it seems likely that a lot of the nuanced preferences only come out over time. So perhaps that helps explains the TFL affect. There are more and more details that matter and one can only learn about those details by interacting with more and more jackets.

 

[Bigbenbs]

I would add the Himel Avro to your list of top tier cross-zips:

As you learn more about the details and nuances of high quality leather jackets, you will likely become more discerning and more aware of subtle differences. Within your above-list of top tier jackets, there are material differences in craftsmanship, execution, stitching, seams, hardware, and other details (not to mention the leather). Learn more about these details before you make your final decision on a top tier jacket. You may ultimately decide that the differences are unimportant to you, or not worth the delta in price. That said, take the time to learn about the subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) differences so that you can make an informed decision that you will be happy with in the long run.

Lastly, when you finally make your foray into the top tier, avoid compromises -- avoid buying something that is adequate or good enough. Compromises/"good enough" often gather dust in closets while you continue to pine for what you really want. Therefore, buy what you love -- buy the jacket that sings loudest to you, and puts the biggest smile on your face. Then, enjoy it without reservation.

So using your advanced list of criteria, understanding that they are particular to you, where do you come down in terms of your ultimate classic black cross zip? It would be great if other advanced buyers could also provide their own takes.

 

[Superfluous]

So how per se does one learn about all those nuances without simply owning a lot of jackets and seeing what one likes? I guess trying in a lot of jackets might help. But it seems likely that a lot of the nuanced preferences only come out over time. So perhaps that helps explains the TFL affect. There are more and more details that matter and one can only learn about those details by interacting with more and more jackets.

I agree that a certain amount of firsthand experience is necessary to develop and refine one's personal preferences. You should also read the wealth of information accumulated here from countless members who have traveled the same path. Read about past failures and past success that can help focus your pursuits. Read about the endless array of considerations underlying a jacket purchase, and how different people address and balance those considerations. The reality is that even the most experienced jacket enthusiasts are still learning and continually honing their predilections and methodologies. Its a course with no finish line. You are never done gathering knowledge and experience, and adjusting your subjective preferences accordingly.

I applaud your initiative to start this thread and gather information. Now, go back and read the past threads which contain more detailed data on specific issues relevant to your inquiries. This thread is only a starting place. It is not a substitute for the invaluable data base contained within the hallowed walls of TFL Outerwear.

 

[Superfluous]

So using your advanced list of criteria, understanding that they are particular to you, where do you come down in terms of your ultimate classic black cross zip? It would be great if other advanced buyers could also provide their own takes.

I do not have an "ultimate classic black cross zip." Rather, I only have personal preferences and my personal preferences lean towards cafe racers over cross-zips.

 

[TREEMAN]

Why would you steer clear of Fox Creek? It has had good reviews on the Lounge. Based on those reviews, I got a Fox Creek motorcycle jacket six or seven years ago. Have been very pleased with it. It is one of about 4 or 5 my 15 leather jackets that I wear on a regular basis.

7 years ago maybe they were better...I never heard anything good about them...some say the leather is very rubbery.......IMO the leather is too pebbley and stamped looking. Again thats my opinion, glad your happy with yours.

 

[ton312]

So using your advanced list of criteria, understanding that they are particular to you, where do you come down in terms of your ultimate classic black cross zip? It would be great if other advanced buyers could also provide their own takes.

The only take that matters is your own. What's your take on the ultimate black leather M\C jacket? Why? There's nothing but opinions to be found here. You'll find a buffet of opinions, all equally rational and equally valid. But if you don't have one of your own...what's the point? If I were you, I'd do an image search and formulate your own opinion and buy based on that. The rest is just forum fodder that likely won't help you one way or the other. I could post no less than 20 perfect black M\C cross zip jackets, all of which may or may not appeal to you. If you don't have an opinion... consider a stylist.
Not trying to be too harsh here but the question is really not for the peanut gallery to answer. Do your homework and show us the ultimate black M/C jacket. I understand the question but nobody here is an expert beyond their own preferences, myself (probably) most of all.

 

[El Marro]

I could post no less than 20 perfect black M\C cross zip jackets, all of which may or may not appeal to you.

He really could too! For most of the time I have been here Ton has been on a mythical quest for the ultimate cross zip jacket, with occasional forays into halfbelts or cafe racers. He has forgotten more about this style than most of us will ever learn.
If I had to pick my two choices they would be Langlitz and Cal Leathers, two companies that have been making the same jackets the same way for more than 50 years.

 

[Bigbenbs]

The only take that matters is your own. What's your take on the ultimate black leather M\C jacket? Why? There's nothing but opinions to be found here. You'll find a buffet of opinions, all equally rational and equally valid. But if you don't have one of your own...what's the point? If I were you, I'd do an image search and formulate your own opinion and buy based on that. The rest is just forum fodder that likely won't help you one way or the other. I could post no less than 20 perfect black M\C cross zip jackets, all of which may or may not appeal to you. If you don't have an opinion... consider a stylist.
Not trying to be too harsh here but the question is really not for the peanut gallery to answer. Do your homework and show us the ultimate black M/C jacket. I understand the question but nobody here is an expert beyond their own preferences, myself (probably) most of all.

Fair enough. But it still seems to me a useful thing to see how a lot of other minds work and why on an issue I'm thinking about. No has to answer if they don't find it interesting to do so. And yes, I can get all of that info by looking back over forums. Also, yes, I understand that it is only opinions. But, to use a metaphor, that doesn't mean that it's useless to pick a bunch of French chefs minds about their favorite, I don't know, bernaise recipe. It's illuminating, even if it's only opinions, and helps clarify possibilities that weren't apparent before.

So I'm very grateful to everyone for giving their opinions, and also for periodically scolding me for asking for their opinions.

 

[TheMarriedHermit]

The rest is just forum fodder...

I like that. I'm proud to be a card-carrying, hell-bent for leather forum fodder.

Sent from my LG-SP320 using Tapatalk

 

[Jejupe]

Fair enough. But it still seems to me a useful thing to see how a lot of other minds work and why on an issue I'm thinking about. No has to answer if they don't find it interesting to do so. And yes, I can get all of that info by looking back over forums. Also, yes, I understand that it is only opinions. But, to use a metaphor, that doesn't mean that it's useless to pick a bunch of French chefs minds about their favorite, I don't know, bernaise recipe. It's illuminating, even if it's only opinions, and helps clarify possibilities that weren't apparent before.

So I'm very grateful to everyone for giving their opinions, and also for periodically scolding me for asking for their opinions.

I agree with your view. At some point all new threads could be killed at the start with "discussed before - use search!" if we follow that logic. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not here only for the information, but also for the discussion with people who share some of my interests.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

So Bigbens:
I’m alittle bit curious as to what best black biker for non-biker jacket opinions you have assimilated?
Having picked the minds of those who have spent countless dollars, trial and error, escalating their knowledge base and generously sharing in minute detail because of their love for leather jackets and their caring concern for someone investigating the purchase of that “best” black non-rider jacket that we all dream of.
Where are you on all this fella?
To what end?
Maybe you could give us some example of your position.
B