Bespoke military uniforms?

[David Conwill]

My understanding is that at one time it was not uncommon to have one's uniform created by a private tailor for better fit and higher quality materials. Is that still done or is it so against regulations that nobody does it any longer? Modern Class A's up close are just so cheap looking, I can't see wanting to wear them if it was possible to have a decent set whipped up. Particularly if you were in a position where you never appeared in formation and wouldn't be readily compared with the issue stuff.

-Dave

 

[Smithy]

Can't speak for US items but it was standard procedure for officers in the British services, especially the RAF.

For example...

For instance just prior to WWII, pupils in the RAF on a short service commission were issued £50 uniform allowance. Two common outfitters for example then were Gieves & Hawkes and Burberry's, although there were many tailors catering for the military all over the country depending on where an airman was based. Accounts were opened at such tailors to cover whatever remained of the bill after the allowance was used.

By the way Gieves & Hawkes still do much military tailoring especially for the RAF, although (due to the cost) mostly senior ranks.

 

[Story]

The generally accepted method of ordering up Dress Blues is to figure out one's measurements on a site like this
http://www.supertrooper.com/FitForm.htm
and send in your order. [huh]

 

[dhermann1]

When my grandfather was in the Quartermaster's Corps in WW I, he had an enlisted man's uniform made with officer's cloth. This, apparently, was not uncommon. Today, however, I would think you'd sort of stand out.

 

[Haversack]

Back in the late 1970s all of us ROTC cadets who were looking forward to graduation and commissioning were visted by a tailor from a firm that specialized in military uniforms. This was for our Class A uniform. Measurements were taken and the clothing was delivered several weeks later. (So it was 'made-to-measure', not bespoke.) Still, the uniforms were of of good wool gabardine and looked good even up close. I do not off the top of my head remember the name of the company.

Haversack.

 

[Ugarte]

It seems to me that "bespoke" may be incompatible with the concept of "uniform", but anyway.

The woman who currently does my alterations is a very fine taylor originally from the Philippines. She tells me that Marine dress blues are without a doubt the most demanding job she has. She says that the recipients are measured and the blues are made to measure for them, then they show up in her shop with rulers and manuals to have them fine tuned.

My father was on an Army funeral detail in 1945-46 and says that they all had custom-tailored Class A's. Started with off-the-rack uniforms, then had them strictly altered locally in Hawaii.

I've also heard a lot of stories about guys like Major Clark Gable and Major Jimmie Stewart wearing custom tailored uniforms. At least the Class A's.

Mark
.

 

[David Conwill]

It seems to me that "bespoke" may be incompatible with the concept of "uniform", but anyway.

Alas, it appears you're right. I should have said "made to measure." I'm still mastering the terminology, I'm afraid. Still, I find there's nothing like using a term incorrectly and being corrected to set it straight in my mind.

the recipients are measured and the blues are made to measure for them, then they show up in her shop with rulers and manuals to have them fine tuned.

But by whom are they made to measure? Does the Marine have the option of selecting who makes his uniform and from what? Or is he stuck with fine-tuning a uniform sourced from someone with a government contract using government-spec materials?

My father was on an Army funeral detail in 1945-46 and says that they all had custom-tailored Class A's. Started with off-the-rack uniforms, then had them strictly altered locally in Hawaii.

Sounds similar to my grandfather. He was stationed in Japan in the 1950s in the USAF, and I'm fairly certain he had his uniforms made in Hong Kong. Including a very nice mess dress. I've still got them all, alas they no longer use that pattern, and I'm bigger than him anyway.

I've also heard a lot of stories about guys like Major Clark Gable and Major Jimmie Stewart wearing custom tailored uniforms. At least the Class A's.

As have I, but I have no idea how the modern "democratic" military feels about the practice. I've heard there was a big stink about "elitism" in Army officers uniforms after WWII and that it was one of the factors that led to the demise of the pinks-and-greens.

-Dave

 

[Tango Yankee]

It seems to me that I heard a couple of years ago that the Navy had a made to measure contract with some company that was being opened up to the other services, but I can't find anything about it now.

When I was stationed in Korea in the mid-80s there were some who had uniforms made off-base. The trend in the AF before I retired was that for the most part the BDU was the uniform of the day though there were exceptions. Even Dining Outs/Dining Ins were being done in BDUs and called "Combat Dining Out!" As a result most have very little use for the service dress or mess dress uniform so there's not much incentive to spend the extra money on having one made.

Just my own observations...

Tom

 

[MrBern]

we were mulling over this site on the Ike Jacket thread.
http://www.marlowwhite.com/dress-uniforms/coats.html

 

[GBR]

It remains quite normal for UK Officers in all the services to have their uniforms made - quite frequently bespoke.

All mess dress is made for individual of senior rank although lower ranks can frequently use second hand items altered to fit given their lower usage of same.

 

[Ugarte]

Alas, it appears you're right. I should have said "made to measure." I'm still mastering the terminology, I'm afraid. Still, I find there's nothing like using a term incorrectly and being corrected to set it straight in my mind.

No problem. The term "bespoke" is a bit nebulous beyond the literal meaning -- "That about which we spoke."

But by whom are they made to measure? Does the Marine have the option of selecting who makes his uniform and from what? Or is he stuck with fine-tuning a uniform sourced from someone with a government contract using government-spec materials?

As I understand it (this is speculative) you are issued a made-to-measure uniform from whatever supplier the government has contracted. I have heard about the prospect of AF guys overseas (we are local to Canon Air Force Base and pilots and crews were deployed to places like Italy, Korea and Turkey) who had uniforms made and even had BDU's tailored, but that would be really risky with something like Marine Dress Blues. You line 10 Marines up in Blues and any deviation is liable to stick out like a sore thumb. It could mean trouble.

Sounds similar to my grandfather. He was stationed in Japan in the 1950s in the USAF, and I'm fairly certain he had his uniforms made in Hong Kong. Including a very nice mess dress. I've still got them all, alas they no longer use that pattern, and I'm bigger than him anyway.

That's cool. I'll bet there are museums and collectors that would love to get their hands on those.

As have I, but I have no idea how the modern "democratic" military feels about the practice. I've heard there was a big stink about "elitism" in Army officers uniforms after WWII and that it was one of the factors that led to the demise of the pinks-and-greens.

The military probably isn't too keen on it as Tango Yankee points out.

As an observer, I see that the various branches of our armed services seem to be constantly occupied with the idea of changes to the uniform. Sometimes it's good, though it seems things invariably careen off into an awkward direction. I think the WWII era looks so good because it was, after all, the Golden Age.

Hardly anybody wears a suit anymore. It's not surprising to me that such apparel would tend to suffer in the military.

Mark
.

 

[David Conwill]

Ugarte, I think you've cleared things up for me. If AF guys are still getting uniforms made overseas, then the tradition must survive. Although with everyone wearing fatigues (BDUs, ACUs, ABUs, whatever) these days, the practice is probably limited.

Hardly anybody wears a suit anymore. It's not surprising to me that such apparel would tend to suffer in the military.

You make an excellent point. Although I still don't see how anyone manages to feel professional wearing the military equivalent of Dickies all the time. In maintenance and combat situations they are certainly necessary; in an office environment, they look bizarre. But when you consider the average American would probably relish the opportunity to show up at work in his pajamas, it makes perfect sense.

Do you think we'll see the demise of the "dress" uniform within our lifetime?

-Dave

 

[Ugarte]

Do you think we'll see the demise of the "dress" uniform within our lifetime?

I'm hardly an expert, but...

Historically, uniforms have served as a draw for the military. That's why Marine recruiters frequently wear Dress Blues. Or at least the Dress D's with the blood stripe and the khaki shirt. Just look at Walking John on that poster in Dress A's -- how could you not enlist right there!?

It wasn't unusual for countries that couldn't pay military members to give them a "hot suit" with lots of flash. During the Soviet era, the Red Army treated you like dirt, but you had a cool uniform with a big, shiny hat and probably lots of medals.

And the idea that you had a uniform for parades and a uniform for actual combat was a fairly recent idea in the middle of the 20th century. I believe WWII was the first time soldiers (at least in this country) were issued different uniforms for different roles. Enlisted WWII era German soldiers, for example, wore the same uniform for all occasions.

I don't think the "hot suit" will disappear, but it will certainly change.

Mark
.

 

[Fletch]

Yes, up until the issue of the M1941 (Parsons) jacket, Army troopers were expected to go into battle in their 4 pocket baby$#!! greens or suntans, complete with ties. The Marines actually did arrive in Greenland in '41 in class A's, campaign hats, and blanket cloth overcoats.

Another strike against the Army pink & greens was that they were not a true uniform so much as a loose set of uniform items that officers could mix and match as they liked (at least in some commands). Enlisted were denied any such latitude.

 

[Ugarte]

Yes, up until the issue of the M1941 (Parsons) jacket, Army troopers were expected to go into battle in their 4 pocket baby$#!! greens or suntans, complete with ties. The Marines actually did arrive in Greenland in '41 in class A's, campaign hats, and blanket cloth overcoats.

And if you found yourself under the command of Gen. Geo. S. Patton in North Africa in April of 1942, you still fought in a necktie.

Mark
.

 

[SGT Rocket]

New Dress Uniform

My understanding is that at one time it was not uncommon to have one's uniform created by a private tailor for better fit and higher quality materials. Is that still done or is it so against regulations that nobody does it any longer? Modern Class A's up close are just so cheap looking, I can't see wanting to wear them if it was possible to have a decent set whipped up. Particularly if you were in a position where you never appeared in formation and wouldn't be readily compared with the issue stuff.

-Dave

The army is actually changing from the old green class A uniform to a dress blue uniform that looks much nicer. When I got my class A's, they were sort of tailored and looked good on me.

Here is an article on it
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/army/a/serviceuniform.htm

Here is an ok picture of the new uniform
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060616/news_1n16army.html

I can't tell you how happy I am to get rid that that totally ugly green uniform.

This link has a chart so you can see how the uniform is changing
http://www.army.com/news/item/2053

 

[Zemke Fan]

I have been three times...

to the annual "American Patriot Award" black-tie dinner sponsored by the National Defense University Foundation and the dress mess uniforms worn by officers studying at the NDU from overseas are absolutely phenomenal. Wide variety and style and all superbly tailored. Amazing.

 

[Otium]

Navy Uniforms

There aren't many private Navy uniform manufacturers out there anymore but they are worth the effort when you find them. When I earned my commission I bought my uniforms from Abbotts Military Tailors, Pensacola. The quality over the standard USN clothing is noticeable and, most importantly, they had several fitting sessions to get everything perfect. The effort they put into it easily offset the nominal price difference. I still haven't found a better priced or better quality bridge coat. I know there is another tailor in Annapolis but I cannot vouch for their uniforms. On the other hand, they still make cane straw covers that are simply divine and are infinitely better than the plastic combination cover the Navy tries to force on you.

The only item I like from USN official sources are the Brooks Bros. made Service Dress Blues, which are pretty nice. Then your only problem is making sure the tailor makes the adjustments correctly.

If you want a really rare item you can always get a boat cloak. It looks amazing but opportunities to wear it are rare. The only place I know of any availability is a private uniform store in Quantico, VA.

Now I just need to find out who makes rank insignia out of precious metals. I bit trivial but everyone has their frivolities.

 

[Alex Oviatt]

I once went to a murder mystery party and was told to come as a military officer. I went to a local vintage military store in Santa Monica, hoping I could find a cheap hat or something to wear to the party. Instead, I bought an WW II RAF officer's uniform that fit me like a glove--scary how well it fits. It is from Gieves & Hawkes, and I often thought of researching the person for whom it was made--his name and the date are on the tailor's label--since he and I were so similar in size. Long gone now, I'm sure. Cost lots more than I had thought to spend but worth it--it is beautifully made, as a Savile Row bespoke suit/uniform should be.

 

[CharlestonBows]

Dege & Skinner -- Savile Row tailors to officers and gentlemen.

The concepts of 'bespoke' and 'uniform', particularly in a military context, should not be seen as mutually exclusive. Bear in mind, many (if not most) of the hallmarks of a man's dress today has direct lineage to it's military cousins; it's from where men's clothing has evolved.

-- CB