Berlin museum breaks Nazi taboo with Hitler exhibition

[filfoster]

Thank you marcoshark. I think yours is the most interesting commentary on this thread.
Am nearly done with Richard Evan's The Coming of the Third Reich and after nearly 50 years of reading WW2 history, had never had the violence of what happened to opponents of that regime, and particularly the jews, with explanations of the 'authority' for these deeds at all levels, detailed so comprehensively and concisely. These things happened almost immediately after January 30th, 1933 all over Germany, and of course, got worse.
That reading gives your account a particular context.

 

[DetroitFalcons]

Germany should learn about it's past, but it honestly doesn't matter as much as people think. They are a shell of what they once were, and in the future learning about the Armenian holocaust could be more relevant to the rank and file German.

 

[griffer]

Having visited many parts of Germany and Austria, I don't enderstand what the big deal is. The documentation center in Obersalzburg, the museums in Berlin, camps such as Mathaussen, the Wewelsburg Castle exhibits, even the basement of Hotel zum Turken document this era. The NS era is not hidden in Deutschland.

 

[Viola]

The point of this is that the way I see it, Germany is now able to look at what happened and realizes that this cannot ever happen again. I think it's a gutsy move on the Museums part. Now one thing I did notice, there are Police stationed at The Neue Synagoge in Berlin as well as The Jewish Museum in Frankfurt. I was also asked to see ID before I was allowed to enter. So, things are still a bit of a hot bed.

To be fair to Germany, that's not really their fault especially. It's better to be cautious than not. The last Holocaust Museum shooting was in the U.S. and I know many synagogues in my hometown that had either ongoing problems with vandalism or annual bomb-threats. There are annual police barricades in front of a couple Philadelphia synagogues every year for some holidays, and the police would ask to see my ticket. (Very nice police officers).

It would be a black eye on the nation if there was, G-d forbid, a bomb in a German synagogue the way it wouldn't be for a Philly shul. I can't blame them for not wanting that. I doubt its actually that much of a hotbed.

 

[Unlucky Berman]

Interesting....history is history, and Hitler is a big spot on their history. I still don't quite understand the fear connected with him today. Neo-nazis are not a group that is going to rise to power anywhere. Is anyone "afraid" of a Japanese ruler attacking us again? Of course not, Hitler is just another of many monsters in history that is long gone. The German people should show as much as they have on him so people learn and won't make the same mistakes again.

It may not be a problem in the rest of the world, but in the German mindset it clearly is until today. I think many people of other countries don't understand this psycholocigal thing or problem that Germany has until today with this special past. Especially our politicians are so, how should I say, afraid that if there is anything about nazis or right-wing extremists happening in Germany itself, even if it is just a museum or exhibition, the whole world would look onto them and could call them nazi or something like that or think it is happening again here. This fear has become a "living thing" or a "will" of its own here and it could be hard for people from other countries to understand it.
Frankly, it is even hard to understand it as a German of the younger generation in some aspects.:eusa_doh: But it goes really really deep and influences all the political life and in some aspects also the rest of the public life if it comes about the thematic WWII and war in general. That means also the problem which our government has with conflicts like Iraq or Afghanistan and be a part of a force making a "war" there is influenced by this thematic. The discussions here are why should we have a part in another war with "our history" and so on... But that is a problem which our politicians caused with their hysteria and a single-minded pacifistic illusion that Germany can play a big role in bringing peace to the world and this can go without any conflicts.

What few times my German friends did bring up WWII they were very quick to point out that they were horrified at what was done by Hitler and his entourage.

Yap, something which is inherent for everyone grown up here and a kind of reflex when it comes to this question. It goes even deeper. I had such a discussion with some Germans and two people from the USA and when it was going a bit someone said that she felt ashamed even today to be born as a german because of that history. I could only shake my head, because that is really ridiciolous. She was twenty and born decades after that from parents who also were born after WWII.shakeshead Every nation has dark spots in history, such a kind of self-pity does not help to go into a future and if it comes to decisions like helping in conflicts even ethical decisions between other nations it can be a constriction.

So I think such a exhibition is a good idea to learn from the past instead of sinking into a kind of self-pity and negation of anything which brings some remembrance of it.

The point of this is that the way I see it, Germany is now able to look at what happened and realizes that this cannot ever happen again. I think it's a gutsy move on the Museums part. Now one thing I did notice, there are Police stationed at The Neue Synagoge in Berlin as well as The Jewish Museum in Frankfurt. I was also asked to see ID before I was allowed to enter. So, things are still a bit of a hot bed.

To the half I'd say yes and the other half no. It's complicated since more than 60 years and more than three generations now. The generation who were living during the WWII and had "done" this did not want to be reminded about it after the end of the war. They want to rebuilt and forget. Their children grew up with this and then they started to ask questions and in the end were accusing their parents which lead to open conflicts and even more a kind of bad climate about this thematic. Now many of those so-called 68er (sixtyeighters) are high-ranking politicians and there is nothing that can frighten them more than being called nazi. But that could happen fast and is has been used often, e.g. if they only talk about some controversal things or if there even may be the slightest thing or hint of something which may be used by people of a lightly extremistic or conservative side then someone brings the word nazi and that usually ends every discussion and it goes on to the state of accusing each other and denying and so on. That polluted the political discussions since years and makes it in some areas really hard to start discussions and changes in the society. The end of it is that they think more about what might the world think of Germany rather than really try some reflecting or even try a constructive thinking and discussion of Germany and Germans themselves about what happened. So I think those memorials are to some part a show for the people of other countries, that Germany is deeply ashamed and horrified about "its" past but ironically on the other side no one here wants really to be remembered and even talk about it.

Regarding, the police infront of some synagogs, that may be because there are still nazi sympathizers and neo-nazis in Germany and during the past it happened sometimes that they were violating places like that. Then there is right now some controversy about non-Christian religions (mostly islam and the culture of islamic people) here and maybe they fear that in the wake of that some of the neo-nazis may use the situation for their own actions.

Maybe this exhibiton changes that now a bit or it can be a start to change it for the younger people and newest generation who are more apart from this old self-pity and t a higher extend part of a globalized world and society.

Ps. sorry for the long edits but I wanted to ad some of my personal thinkings as a German about what may bring some new light to something said in this thread. So I was answering them in the moment I came across one aspect.

 

[scotrace]

Wonderful discussion. Welcome to our German members who are adding so much excellent commentary!

 

[griffer]

Now many of those so-called 68er (sixtyeighters) are high-ranking politicians and there is nothing that can frighten them more than being called nazi.

Are you afraid that behind the knee jerk contrition, there is a current of NS yearnings? Do some want the strong, dominant Germany promised by Hitler?

I am curious because of Sarrazin's anti immigration book, Merkel's recent declaration that multikulti was a failure, and tangential European movement like Geert Wilders against Muslims.

Interested in your take and the timing of this exhibition.

 

[Spitfire]

Let's hope Germany soon can have as many museums on their past as we have.
Up here we have Viking Museums all over the place allthough they murdered, raped and pillaged their way through most of Europe.

 

[Aristaeus]

You should read more and reply less, Aristaeus. I was comparing Germans hiding from their past with Americans hiding from theirs. Japan does it too. China makes it policy. Really now.

With regards to who should read more I believe we established that on the last issue we discussed.
I don't think there is anything the U.S. is hiding from and to claim that we are is false.
The cartoons you are talking about are propaganda films, that you can purchase, some are on youtube and other internet sites. Not much hiding from the past going on.
Therefore, American and for that matter Allied propaganda films cannot be equated to any act the Axis committed.

 

[Aristaeus]

Just interpret in "the context" it was intended my friend regarding facing history, facing unto it and learning from that (If interested, read up on the British Army Campaigns in Afghanistan and NW Frontier - yep! Brits have already done Afghanistan as Kipling has recorded). Good interesting thread.

I am familiar with the U.K. and Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which were for conquest and adding territory to the Empires. The U.S. invasion is for a totally different reason and with different goals. the three cannot be compaired and have nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Pompidou]

With regards to who should read more I believe we established that on the last issue we discussed.
I don't think there is anything the U.S. is hiding from and to claim that we are is false.
The cartoons you are talking about are propaganda films, that you can purchase, some are on youtube and other internet sites. Not much hiding from the past going on.
Therefore, American and for that matter Allied propaganda films cannot be equated to any act the Axis committed.

Germany's not the Axis now. It's 2010, not 1945. I don't know why you have the idea I'm comparing the US to Nazi Germany. And go check out the movie forums here, where there's a thread on how 11 longtime censored cartoons from America's past are finally buyable. I was comparing two nations with checkered pasts. I wasn't claiming the pasts were equally checkered or making any statement on which was worse. I was saying, they shouldn't hide from their past, just like we shouldn't hide from ours - you could extrapolate that to say nobody should hide from it. Germany's hosting a museum exhibit. The US is releasing 11 long hidden videos. I think both are good things. I don't know what to say to you.

 

[Unlucky Berman]

Are you afraid that behind the knee jerk contrition, there is a current of NS yearnings? Do some want the strong, dominant Germany promised by Hitler?

There certainly are some who want to have those old times back. As I said above even here in Germany we still have neo-nazis. This kind of movement and thinking still exists in the world and as far as I know even in Russia (where it seems a bit ridiculous considering that Hitler and his “gang” thought of them as unworthy to live), other parts of Europe and even in the USA. But they are also a minority and they don’t have real political influence. But there are still tendencies in the conservative part of society who are afraid of everything which can change "their" world or what they think the world should be. This may make some of them also suspective to some arguments used by the extremists. The quesiton is if this is a German problem in special or a worldwide problem in the Western Civilisation in general. Seeing Wilders and even some other movements gaining more and more popularity in other countries (not only Europe) during the last years I think it is growing. But is this really a revitalisation of the old nazi-movement or just a new kind of nationalism and protectionism of what many people call their culture and heritage. To a certain degree every one fears changes and for some of us this may have become also what I would call a "will of its own" in that, that they do not realize how close this fears get them to a kind of extremist thinking. If then some real right-winged politicians are using this fears and also do not look like the old nazis (more like a nice banker or any other businessmen) it can be hard to tell the difference.

I am curious because of Sarrazin's anti immigration book, Merkel's recent declaration that multikulti was a failure, and tangential European movement like Geert Wilders against Muslims.

Interested in your take and the timing of this exhibition.

Considering Wilders, I am not sure. Its the Netherlands and I do not know people from there to know really what is going on there and what politics they make. But as an outsider I can only guess as well as anyone here. I would say that there is a certain uncertainty which he uses to gain voters in a way that he uses their fears of everything foreign and globalization with the usual problems. And after 9/11 there certainly is a kind of fear and sometimes maybe even hysteria in western countries about islam and islamic cultures. So that is an easy way for some of those more extremistic politicians to serve those fears and use them. Mix all that into one pot and you find something where many people sympathize more or less. After all there are many who are afraid to loose his job because of someone else (even if this someone is an anonymous thing very far away) or thinks that people with hoods and talking foreign languages in your neighbourhood may be capable of doing suspicious things.

What Merkel meant is much more complicated and has something to do with the way immigration and immigrants were dealt with (or not dealt with) during the last decades.
I can for instance sympathize with some things she said and meant.
It began in the 1950s or more 1960s when Western Germany needed workers for their industry. They looked for workers in many countries, e.g. first Italy and later Turkey and lured them with (more or less) good payment. The government thought they would work for some years until the Germans had recovered from the losses of the war and then would go home.
But it was also only a question of time until some of them, now accustomed to the living here, began to bring their families to Germany. So far this was no problem in as much as no one cared and they still made their work. But no one caring means also no one seemed to be interested in bringing those new “Germans” close to their new home and culture. They were left for their own even began to live in special quarters where many of their culture lived together so they never needed to assimilate the culture of Germany itself. Now a generation later many of those do not speak German never learned much about where they are living and their children born here are living in a kind of two different worlds. Outside in school it is expected to be “German” and at home “Turkish” or wherever their parents came from. So they are outsiders everywhere and do not fit very well here and there.
Then the economial world changed also and unemployment became a big problem especially for those “cheaper and not so well educated” people. Something, which became also a prominent problem now and created some unrest for many in both “worlds” (Germans and Immigrants). No one cared until now that many of the immigrants had problems with our somwehat elite-based school system and many of them could not reach a better level of education or get no chances in the econimical world to become more than cheap workers.
That caused many of the problems we are facing right now and our politicians never cared about them during the last decades. Now they are realizing in some aspects those so-called Multi-Kulti wasn’t a good idea in a way that there can not be Multi-Kulti (multicultural) if there are just two (or more) different cultures existing beside each other in one nation where the people of both get not into contact with people of the “other side”. That creates only ghettos in a modern world and rises borders within one country and within the thinking of the people themselves. And in this the so-called "Multi-Kulti" which was propagated by some politicians since the 1980s as a new way of living in good terms with each other (by imho ignoring reality and the needs of the people and the society) clearly failed.
I think other countries have much stronger restrictions for immigrants than Germany has or had. Isn’t it in the USA where they must make an oath on the constitution and had to learn English? Nothing is asked of immigrants here but that can change in the future since they are discussing similar things. But then they discussed such things also back in the past during election times and soon forgot it after that, so who knows.
There is also a good proportion election campaigning in the discussions right now since our bigger parties are loosing their clientele because during the last years both, the SPD (Social Democrats) and the CDU (Christian Union), have become more and more the same in their programs and in their doings. So now some of their leading politicians are using and serving controversial discussions to distinguish themselves of the others.

Sarrazin is one of those but he is also one who is trying to wake up the society and his fellow politicians with extreme opinions. But he does this in a way where even I do not know what he may want. To say controversial or even extreme things may get you the attention of many people but also of some whose attention may not be wanted (like the extremists of the very right-wing of a society). So far Sarrazin was a politician of the somewhat left-winged SPD but recently he started with arguments not very fitting for this mental attitude. In this he is right now a puzzle to me and I think many other people too. Maybe he really is getting more and more frustrated and started to adopt some kind of paranoia which usually can be found by more extreme conservative people or even right-wing extremists. [huh]