Balmoral Boots

[Mr. Speakeasy]

I agree my explaination was over simplified, but not all boots and shoes in that era were the same, lots of styles varied
like this incredible pair again from the 1910-20's
these sold on ebay a little while ago

which have a much lower and broader heel, these are probably 20's because the button boot interest died down in the 30's and restricted them to less everyday wear

and check out these that sold on etsy a while ago
http://nl.etsy.com/listing/111749426/steampunk-victorian-mens-shoes-wearable
these look much like mine (but in better shape)
and they are dated 1898

the shoes you have were probably a little more expensive and dressy in their day which would have had the more elegant small heel, i'm guessing mine are a little more middle-class and less elegant

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

The patent is dated 1898 not the shoes...

 

[herringbonekid]

...and they are dated 1898

i agree with your other points, however that date is a patent date, not necessarily the date they were made. i think they're later, but not too much... probably mid teens.

 

[herringbonekid]

...much more common for more point on that toe.

The boot above has much too low and wide a heel to be 20's or earlier.

Issh, you know very well that there were low heeled, square toed boots in the early 20s so why you're providing ONE (dressy, high top) pair as evidence of the definitive shape is a mystery to me.

 

[Isshinryu101]

Issh, you know very well that there were low heeled, square toed boots in the early 20s so why you're providing ONE (dressy, high top) pair as evidence of the definitive shape is a mystery to me.

I said MOST, not all. I referenced the pair I have within walking distance from my desk right now, then snapped a coupla pics.

Even the pair above has a mild spade at the instep. Another VERY common occurrence in mens boots in the era being debated right now.

Not always, but, again, much more common than not. By the way, could you please shoe me some pictures of the differences between the 10's, 20's & 40's boots? How would you tell which came from when? I read a lot of "sole shape is clear", but no real reference. The poster compares to other shoes that ALSO have no dates stamped on them, so are they a real reference?

 

[Mr. Speakeasy]

The differences between these era's are very subtle (granted) but some of the most predominant differences would be how pronounced the curve opposite the instep is (outstep?) as it's more obvious the older the shoes,
another difference I find is that the toe in the 30's and 40's got a bit chunkier and higher, (though the bull dog toe goes against this)
I just know that these shoes follows a short lived trend in the teens and 20s to have long pointed toe (though this was revived in the 50's and 60's) but these are obviously not from then

so in short I don't have a definate answer
hopefully someone else will have a more detailed list of details

 

[Mr. Speakeasy]

The patent is dated 1898 not the shoes...

And yeah I realize that the patent doesn't mean the shoes are from then, but that date shows just how old that style is

 

[Isshinryu101]

And yeah I realize that the patent doesn't mean the shoes are from then, but that date shows just how old that style is

exactly what do you think is patented? That particular last shape?

 

[LoveMyHats2]

So..is that date not just for the maker of the shoes, sort of like how in advertisements, best hod dogs made....1920 Patent....but the hot dogs may have been made not so long ago?

 

[Mr. Speakeasy]

ya so the way they made the hot dogs might be patented 1920 but the hot dogs could be made later, though generally patents change fairly regularly so for these shoes the patent might have been for the way they made the soles like the corking or some special welt or heel, since shoes were changing so much in this era the patents didn't stay in use for long, maybe 20 years tops.
Of course this is all just a generalisation, there are always exceptions

 

[Isshinryu101]

The differences between these era's are very subtle (granted) but some of the most predominant differences would be how pronounced the curve opposite the instep is (outstep?) as it's more obvious the older the shoes,
another difference I find is that the toe in the 30's and 40's got a bit chunkier and higher, (though the bull dog toe goes against this)
I just know that these shoes follows a short lived trend in the teens and 20s to have long pointed toe (though this was revived in the 50's and 60's) but these are obviously not from then

so in short I don't have a definate answer
hopefully someone else will have a more detailed list of details

another difference I find is that the toe in the 30's and 40's got a bit chunkier and higher

I just know that these shoes follows a short lived trend in the teens and 20s to have long pointed toe

some of the most predominant differences would be how pronounced the curve opposite the instep is

i would really like to see the frame of reference for all these inferences. Not saying they are all incorrect (not saying I believe them to be correctly stated either), but where are you getting these tidbits? It seems that when it comes to boots, everyone really wants their personal pairs to be from the 1910's or earlier. Then suddenly, we skip straight to the obviously late 40's. No one ever seems to own (or want to own) 20's, 30's or early 40's boots. This is pretty crazy because 99% of the pairs from before then are unwearable style-wise today. Very feminine.

It's a bit like the elusive "1950's Florsheim Longwing gunboat" that EVERYBODY claims to have for sale on ebay.

 

[Mr. Speakeasy]

exactly what do you think is patented? That particular last shape?

I don't think the shape was patented, looks like it has to do with the sole or vamp or something being "ventilated",
or so they claim on the tag

 

[Isshinryu101]

ya so the way they made the hot dogs might be patented 1920 but the hot dogs could be made later, though generally patents change fairly regularly so for these shoes the patent might have been for the way they made the soles like the corking or some special welt or heel, since shoes were changing so much in this era the patents didn't stay in use for long, maybe 20 years tops.
Of course this is all just a generalisation, there are always exceptions

Look, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. It's just that ultimately, a lot of what I keep reading is guesswork and not necessarily grounded in hard fact or research of any sort. And... the patent is for the logo and possibly for some particular construction method the maker felt was unique at the time. Not for a particular style of boot. Patents have never been inexpensive... they were an investment.

 

[Mr. Speakeasy]

Isshinryu101 what's the beef?
I read a lot and have a lot of vintage advertisements and do a lot of personal research on the topic of vintage fashion because it's my passion, and being friends with a fashion historian is always informative. His name is Ivan Sayers if you want to search him up
I'm just saying what I know, if you dissagree i'm fine with that
I like a healthy debate and I hope more people join in

 

[Isshinryu101]

Isshinryu101 what's the beef?
I read a lot and have a lot of vintage advertisements and do a lot of personal research on the topic of vintage fashion because it's my passion, and being friends with a fashion historian is always informative. His name is Ivan Sayers if you want to search him up
I'm just saying what I know, if you dissagree i'm fine with that
I like a healthy debate and I hope more people join in

you misunderstand, my friend! No beef. This is not wendy's. I just appreciate it when people back up their inferences with facts and references. In the internet age, we can no longer accept that which we see with no corroboration. THAT is the way Dictatorships run their countries. I would like to see and learn. Please do not misinterpret. Your Mentor is in the BUSINESS of backing up his inferences.

 

[Mr. Speakeasy]

you misunderstand, my friend! No beef. This is not wendy's. I just appreciate it when people back up their inferences with facts and references. In the internet age, we can no longer accept that which we see with no corroboration. THAT is the way Dictatorships run their countries. I would like to see and learn. Please do not misinterpret. Your Mentor is in the BUSINESS of backing up his inferences.

Good to hear,
Here's the information on patents and how long they last
http://www.2innovative.net/patents.php

a website discussing the style of mens shoes through history
http://www.footwearhistory.com/1870mens.shtml

of course these are just a couple sources that aren't completely reliable, so if it will prove my muster I can track down some old shoe adverts from that era,

I didn't expect this forum to have a hazing

 

[Mr. Speakeasy]

As a sidenote I just ordered a pair of these,
I'm very excited as they are the most reasonably priced benchmade button boots I've found yet.
A very nice lady named Grace sent me some more detail pictures of the boots and they are all leather with a period accurate constructed sole

http://www.wardrobesupplies.co.uk/shop/product?product_id=45127&category_id=47&start=0&order_by=

They have a ton of other great items like collars spats and period victorian bowlers

 

[Tomasso]

I didn't expect this forum to have a hazing

It generally doesn't. BTW, can one be hazed by just one person?

 

[Mr. Speakeasy]

It generally doesn't. BTW, can one be hazed by just one person?

I don't think so, I was just being facetious

 

[Two Types]

"No one ever seems to own (or want to own) 20's, 30's or early 40's boots."

Not exactly true: Isn't HBK always on the hunt for a pair of early twenties balmoral boots?

I'm very glad to see a passionate debate about dating a pair of boots. I hope both sides learn from it. Now i will be looking forward to seeing pages of catalgue scans to back up both sides of the argument.