Attorneys and Barristers of the Lounge

[David Conwill]

Welcome Magistrate Chris! So far it has been a smattering of UK and Commonwealth legal history, wine, and hats, but I was just about to ask a question of the Bar that sort of diverted things a bit.

Technology aside, I would like to hear the Association’s thoughts on how the profession has changed since the Golden Era, and whether it’s for better or worse.

In the United States, we’ve done away with “reading the law” and the bachelor’s degree in law (L.L.B., I think it was), so now every lawyer has a Juris Doctorate. But it strikes me that if anything there is now less prestige to being an attorney than in the ‘30s, ‘40s, and ‘50s; as anyone who can fill out a loan application can get a JD and a bar prep course; law schools crank out far more graduates than there are jobs; and lots of what was once associate work is being farmed out overseas.

My alma mater likes to refer to the flood of graduates as creating better access to justice. So does my state bar for that matter. But I’m not convinced this is really the best thing for society or lawyers, it just seems like a race to the bottom.

Is this accurate, or am I just becoming cynical from reading the comments to ABA Journal articles?

-Dave

 

[MagistrateChris]

I think that there is less prestige, and quite a bit of negativity, actually. Much of it is due, at least in part, to some of the "ambulance chasers" who advertise on TV, promising quick cash, etc. I understand the First Amendment reasons allowing the advertising, but it does cheapen the profession, or at least the appearance of the profession. Like used car sales (no offense to used car sales persons. ). Add to this the increased number of law schools and also graduates practicing, and it seems like half the people you meet are lawyers.

What I find interesting is how people react to the different kinds of law people practice. When I was a prosecutor, I always got a great reaction from people, especially compared to those occassions when I introduced myself as just an attorney. My buddy, who is a sole practitioner doing general practice, gets the ambulance chaser comment from time to time, generally with a laugh.

 

[C-dot]

I think that there is less prestige, and quite a bit of negativity, actually. Much of it is due, at least in part, to some of the "ambulance chasers" who advertise on TV, promising quick cash, etc.

I agree, it does cheapen the profession. People stereotype attorneys by the greasy man on the TV, pointing his fat finger and exclaiming: "I don't get paid until YOU do!" When I announced that I would be going into law at my high school graduation, someone said to me: "You aren't going to be one of those scumbags, are you?"

Also, anyone who has ever hired a lawyer knows how expensive it can be. This is the most common reason people give me for aversion to law. Those who have been "wronged" by a lawyer develop lifelong grudges against the entire profession.

The easier it is to enter a practice, the more people who will, and the more likely you are to find bad apples.

 

[DougC]

Thanks all for the warm welcome. I'll get some pictures of the hat(s) when over the weekend. I'll also try to get a picture of Paris Hatters from my window for all of y'all.

And, yes, commercials do cheapen the profession. Of course, so does the advert on the side of a bus. Being it Texas, when rodeo season hits, you can even see legal ads on trash cans on the fair grounds. All told, the legal profession still seems told hold a shine...for me, anyway.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Sorry that I'm late to the thread. Personal issues and an ill mother kept me away for quite some time. But, I'm thrilled to come back and find that we now have a little Bar in the bar, so to speak.

As the name says, I'm currently a Magistrate in the middle of Ohio. Spent 12 years as a prosecuting attorney. First as a civil/juvenile court type, and then I became a child abuse and violent crime specialist. Just before I burned out, I took a spot as lead counsel for the local narcotics task foce, where I got to live out all of my fantasies of being one of "The Untouchables." Double breasted suit, Stetson fedora, and Smith and Wesson .357 in a shoulder holster underneath. Then in 2006, I got offered the magistrate position in Juvenile/Probate court. Better hours, no more late night search warrants, and a chance to actually be a father to my sons instead of seeing them as I changed clothes or ate dinner. So, here I am.

I work primarily in juvenile court, do some probate work, and help out with general division work when they need another body in a robe. The robe does inhibit my dress, to a degree. But, no shorts under the robe for me! I still dress appropriately every day, as I believe I should look as good under the robe as I do wearing it. As for accoutrements, I wear my nice Tissot Ballade watch, hide my cell phone in a pocket instead of wearing it on my belt, and still wear my Stetson Fedoras. So to the Smith in the shoulder holster, I'll never tell.

So what's the current topic?

We're honoured, your honour! What do they call magistrates in the US? For centuries in the British tradition, magistrates were addressd as 'Your Worship' and judges as 'Your Honour'. Then a few years ago it was decided that this was all too confusing for the public and henceforth all magistrates would no longer be worshiped but honoured like all other inhabitants of the bench. The magistacy puffed out its chest and the judiciary furrowed its brow, but they are all now 'Your Honour'.

It is great to have you join our little Bar. The topic of conversation varies by the day covering a wid range of subjects with the underlying themes of law and vintage - and food and wine of course. But don't be restricted by any precedent we have set. It's not binding! If you have an issue to discuss - bring it on - and do share some of those hat pics.

As for the issue fo advertising and ambulance chasers. Recently, the State parliament here introduced civil liability legislation that prohibited PI lawyers from advertising much at all. There were certainly abuses by some, but I'm also aware how much influence the insuance lobby played in the introduction of this Act and I am concerned that access to justice by legitimate complainants has been curtailed to satisfy the insurance industry.

As an ethics lawyer my main concern re advertising is the duty we all owe to ensure public confidence in our profession is maintained and, conversly, to do nothing that would bring the profession into disrepute. This principle applies regardless of the area of practice.

Has public perceptions of lawyers slipped? Perhaps. One of our difficulties is that the 'product' we provide is not as tangible as a car, a house or a block of land. Once the matter is resolved, it may sometimes be hard for some to appreciate what their money has bought them. Nonetheless, if the question re perception of lawyers is restricted to clients of lawyers, then the approval rate is higher than it is for the general public. Which tends to be an argument against what I said at the beginning of this paragraph.

One of my ongoing tasks is to lift public perceptions of lawyers - but my first battle is to get lawyers believing in themselves, or more specifically, in the profession they belong to.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Lawyers in Lids

Wormser Homburg. More in the What Hat are You Wearing Today thread:

I encourage my lawyer colleagues here to rediscover the Ephraim Tutt stories! New York lawyer, Ephraim Tutt was one of American fiction's most well known characters in the 20's - 40's. Now he's largely forgotten - and well worth finding again.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

I passed the NY Bar Exam!

 

[Atticus Finch]

I passed the NY Bar Exam!

I remember the feeling well….

Congratulations, Counselor.

AF

 

[Spats McGee]

I passed the NY Bar Exam!

Congratulations! :eusa_clap

 

[David Conwill]

Congratulations, Miss Hell. It’s a great feeling, isn’t it? Welcome to the bar! What are you going to be practicing?

Last night I attended a Bankruptcy Bar function at a relatively famous restaurant in Frankenmuth, Michigan called “Zehnder’s”. Zehnder’s is well known for its family style fried-chicken dinners, and they’re nearly as good as the hype.

More importantly, it was a good opportunity to get to know other bankruptcy petitioners in the Northern Division of the Eastern District of Michigan. I don’t get to court as often as some of my colleagues (I don’t file debtor’s cases), so I am learning faces and names somewhat more slowly than I’d like.

As I was hanging up my coat, I even spotted a nice, black homburg on the hat rack. Unfortunately, I was not able to connect hat and owner, but it was good to see that I’m not the only attorney with a little bit of panache to his headgear.

-Dave (who is feeling rather more good about being an attorney today than when he made his last post)

 

[GallatinHatMan]

Let me add my congratulations on passing the bar. It is a wonderful feeling.

 

[DougC]

Job well done, Ms. Hell.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

I passed the NY Bar Exam!

Fantastic Miss Hella! You're now entitled to full admission to two Bar Asociations - THAT one and THIS one! Ladies and Gentlemen - lift your glasses to Counselor Hella Bella! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

As I was hanging up my coat, I even spotted a nice, black homburg on the hat rack. Unfortunately, I was not able to connect hat and owner, but it was good to see that I’m not the only attorney with a little bit of panache to his headgear.

-Dave (who is feeling rather more good about being an attorney today than when he made his last post)

G'day Dave - you realise of course that claims to hat panache require photographic evidence? There are rules governing such things y'know!

Good to hear you're feeling better about being an attorney today. As I tell our lawyers - we are the front-line of justice and that is where our first duty lies. There's a lot to be proud of in that.

 

[tortswon]

Bella, congratulations on passing the bar exam. I still remember the day I got the notice over thirty years ago. The Secretary of the Board of Bar Examiners (not the clerical one, the real one), lived in the same apartment building in which I lived. She knew I had passed but did not tell me. On the day the envelope arrived, she "happened" to be picking up her mail at the same time I was (she knew I was going to be waiting for the mail to arrive).

In addition to getting "the letter" I got a hug from the Secretary of the Board. My life has never been the same. Best, Sam

 

[C-dot]

I passed the NY Bar Exam!

Congratulations! :eusa_clap

You'll have to hang out here now, and be the other Girl Friday lol

 

[MagistrateChris]

Bella,
Congrats on passing the New York bar. No small feat, to say the least. Be proud of yourself. You done good, kiddo.

Ephraim, we magistrates are "your honor," just as the judges, though "Your Worship" does have a nice ring to it. Here in Ohio, the title for the position was Referee until 1996. At that time, it was changed to Magistrate, as it is a more formal title, and the thought was that it would gain more respect for the position than "Referee." Truth be told, it worked among the general public, as the title did actually command more respect, even though nothing else about the position had changed.

Magistrates in Ohio are more like assistant judges. We are appointed by a judge (who is elected), and serve at the will of that judge. The judge then drafts appointment papers and Orders of Referral, which dictate what authority the magistrate will hold, and what work will be done. In my position, thankfully, I've earned a great deal of trust from my Judge, and I have the full authority the rules permit, and some administrative functions as well.

 

[Harp]

Double breasted suit, Stetson fedora, and Smith and Wesson .357 in a shoulder holster underneath.

...no ankle bite?

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

And speaking of the Bar Exam...

I just read this (http://abovethelaw.com/2009/07/):

"If you just finished your state bar exam today, Above the Law is here for you. If you finished the bar yesterday, immediately went to a purveyor of alcohol, and are just waking up now with a midget stripper in your bed, welcome back.

No matter how badly you think you did on your bar exam, trust me, you did better than Carlos Enrique Gomez-Alvarez. The Salt Lake Tribune reports:

A Utah immigration attorney and four of his employees accused in a visa fraud scheme on Wednesday entered not guilty pleas to the crimes. …
Carlos Enrique Gomez-Alvarez, arrested in New York while taking the bar exam in Buffalo, also entered a not guilty plea in New York on Wednesday and is expected to be transported to Utah this week.


Arrested while taking the bar exam? That’s got to add up to a galactic fail."

 

[memphislawyer]

Well, sorry I have been away for so long, but wow, have some news and don't know where else to share it. My daughter is a 2L at the University of Memphis law school - when I went, they called it Memphis State University Law School. Back in the day, we had mock trial and it was one and done, if you lost. She was in the 1L moot court competition and her team finished 6th out of 54 teams and she placed 8th best oral advocate. For someone who did not want to go into the court room, she did well.

Now she just finished the advanced moot court competition and they did well on their brief for the competition. They have a double elimination and they lost the 2nd round, and then came back to sweep 7 in a row and in the final round, beat the team that bounced them in the 2nd round. My daughter is a champion! And to beat that, she received the runner-up Best Oral Advocate award. They were judged by the presiding chief Judge of the U.S. District Court and 2 state Court of Criminal Appeals judges. I am so proud, but don't tell her that I think she would beat me in court. You always want your children to do better than you, and she is so far doing that, and her grades are much better than mine were.

Well, proud papa display over, now to get her a good job this summer, as she wants to maybe go to Atlanta and practice Labor and Employment law, malpractice defense or white-collar criminal defense (she took a Temple University international criminal law class in Rome this summer and loved it).