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[Rmccamey]

I've read so much about hats the last week my head is about to explode! And thank all of you for your input and patience. I would appreciate a summary of information from some of you most knowledgeable mentors in the lounge. When I pick up a hat, what are the top 4,5,6 things that I should look at/feel of that would tell me whether the hat is a really well-made high quality hat or whether it is just another average hat someone (or some company) has for sale. Or, stated a bit differently, what do the top 10% (ie, the best) hats have that the bottom 90% do not have, or do not have to nearly the same level or degree? Pictures of good/bad examples would be appreciated. Thanks to all.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I've read so much about hats the last week my head is about to explode! And thank all of you for your input and patience. I would appreciate a summary of information from some of you most knowledgeable mentors in the lounge. When I pick up a hat, what are the top 4,5,6 things that I should look at/feel of that would tell me whether the hat is a really well-made high quality hat or whether it is just another average hat someone (or some company) has for sale. Or, stated a bit differently, what do the top 10% (ie, the best) hats have that the bottom 90% do not have, or do not have to nearly the same level or degree? Pictures of good/bad examples would be appreciated. Thanks to all.

Your asking a lot of tough questions with a lot of subjective bias woven into them. I suggest you keep reading and going back through old threads. A lot of what you are looking for is already out there but you’ll need to big it out. Don’t be in a hurry and put in the leg work; it will pay off when you decide to buy or commission a hat.


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[drmaxtejeda]

I've read so much about hats the last week my head is about to explode! And thank all of you for your input and patience. I would appreciate a summary of information from some of you most knowledgeable mentors in the lounge. When I pick up a hat, what are the top 4,5,6 things that I should look at/feel of that would tell me whether the hat is a really well-made high quality hat or whether it is just another average hat someone (or some company) has for sale. Or, stated a bit differently, what do the top 10% (ie, the best) hats have that the bottom 90% do not have, or do not have to nearly the same level or degree? Pictures of good/bad examples would be appreciated. Thanks to all.

Buy an Optimo in Silverbelly felt. Look at it and feel it carefuly. That is a very high quality hat, guaranteed. Then measure other hats in comparison. Some vintage felts are even better, but not by a lot, and not many.
It worked for me.

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[Rmccamey]

Can't afford an Optimo yet (part of the reason I asked the question). I'll have to stop by the next time I'm in Chicago.

Buy an Optimo in Silverbelly felt. Look at it and feel it carefuly. That is a very high quality hat, guaranteed. Then measure other hats in comparison. Some vintage felts are even better, but not by a lot, and not many.
It worked for me.

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[Bill Hughes]

I've read so much about hats the last week my head is about to explode! And thank all of you for your input and patience. I would appreciate a summary of information from some of you most knowledgeable mentors in the lounge. When I pick up a hat, what are the top 4,5,6 things that I should look at/feel of that would tell me whether the hat is a really well-made high quality hat or whether it is just another average hat someone (or some company) has for sale. Or, stated a bit differently, what do the top 10% (ie, the best) hats have that the bottom 90% do not have, or do not have to nearly the same level or degree? Pictures of good/bad examples would be appreciated. Thanks to all.

Once you know your size buy a couple of vintage (1960s or older) hats made by one of the big makers (Stetson, Knox, Dobbs, Borsalino, etc.). Then use those as you standard to compare new hats. Nothing from the big names today (Stetson, Knox, Dobbs, Borsalino, etc.) will compare well. In other words my advice is to buy vintage or buy custom.

The hats made by these custom makers are all good. The starting felt material may not be as good as some of the vintage but the workmanship is better. When you buy a vintage hat you don't know who actually built the hat. If you buy from one of these custom hatters you know a master worked on you hat.

(in alphabetical order)

1. Alley Kat (Tim Mahovich)
2. Black Sheep Hat Works (Bob Jessee)
3. Brass Rooster (John McLaughlin)
4. Brent Black (Panama Hat Company of the Pacific)
5. Esther Weis Millinery (Esther Weis)
6. Falcon Park
7. Gannon Hat Company (Mike Gannon)
8. North West Hat Company (Mike)
9. Optimo
10. Penman Hat Company (John Penman)
11. VS Custom Hats (Art Fawcett)
12. Wellema Hat Company

 

[Rmccamey]

Thanks, Bill, that is exactly what the kind of info I'm looking for but can you tell me what to look for before I get to that point? Is the stitching on the headband tighter, is the felt softer or smoother, is the stitching of the ribbon to the hat less visible, will water droplets bead up more/less, is the liner sewn or glued...all those sorts of things.

I did have to opportunity to visit Optimo in Chicago a few months back but knew so little then that I don't know what I was looking at...and knew I could not afford any of theirs at the moment...I'll make them one of my "dream hats" I suppose. I have been looking at some of the other custom makers, specifically, Gannon, and he seems to have a good following and prices are much more within my budget so I'll probably go that route for now...but that is still 8 to 10 weeks out.

Thanks again, Bill, I always appreciate your insight.

Once you know your size buy a couple of vintage (1960s or older) hats made by one of the big makers (Stetson, Knox, Dobbs, Borsalino, etc.). Then use those as you standard to compare new hats. Nothing from the big names today (Stetson, Knox, Dobbs, Borsalino, etc.) will compare well. In other words my advice is to buy vintage or buy custom.

The hats made by these custom makers are all good. The starting felt material may not be as good as some of the vintage but the workmanship it better. When you buy a vintage hat you don't know who actually built the hat. If you buy from one of these custom hatters you know a master worked on you hat.

(in alphabetical order)

1. Alley Kat (Tim Mahovich)
2. Black Sheep Hat Works (Bob Jessee)
3. Brass Rooster (John McLaughlin)
4. Brent Black (Panama Hat Company of the Pacific)
5. Esther Weis Millinery (Esther Weis)
6. Falcon Park
7. Gannon Hat Company (Mike Gannon)
8. North West Hat Company (Mike)
9. Optimo
10. Penman Hat Company (John Penman)
11. VS Custom Hats (Art Fawcett)
12. Wellema Hat Company

 

[jlee562]

Before I make some sweeping generalities, they must be prefaced by stating that such generalities are limited in their usefulness when we are talking about the desirable stock of vintage hats (say from the 60's and older). There are so many variables with regards to felt weight and quality. Some hats should be more stiff than others. Some hats will naturally feel more plush or soft without necessarily indicating "better" quality. From my collection, my 3x Open Road feels softer to the touch and has less stiffener than my Stetson 100, which is "on paper," a higher quality. Also, while we've partially placed together a loose hierarchy of felt qualities, whatever happened in the decades between is affecting our perceptions in unknown ways. What's true for one example, even within the same quality, may not be for another if it was produced at a different year (or if its owner wore it on the rain more, or had it reblocked)

if there's a bound edge, pay particular attention to the seam where they join. It should be neat and the 'butt' ends of the ribbon should be folded over and neatly matched together, while being centered in the rear of the hat.

The condition of the sweatband is important. Older hats tend to have wider sweatbands about 2" in width. This doesn't apply to every old hat, but it was rarely seen in later hats (say, post war or so).

Ribbon tacking stitches should be unobtrusive and on the finished edge part of the grosgrain ribbon. No clear poly thread 1/4 way up the ribbon like a modern Stetson.

Sewn in liners are generally preferable as the glued in liners are the mark of a hat industry cutting corners.

Also pay attention to dye saturation. If you've ever watched a "how it's made" video on modern Stetsons, you may have seen them talk about powder in the finish...This is to cover up uneven spots that generally weren't seen in vintage hats because the attention to detail during the dye process was greater.* This is one of those things that's hard to describe, but if you look at a really clean vintage hat and compare it to a modern,you'll see that a lot of vintage hats just seem to catch the light differently. This is a product of greater attention to detail throughout. IMHO, Optimo's felts, which come from Fepsa in Portugal, are the best modern felts and the deep, rich colors on their website aren't just good lighting.

*oh yeah, about those finishing powders, they are mentioned in Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovation. So you see, every generality has a contradiction. Welcome to the hobby!

 

[Rmccamey]

Excellent, JLee, excellent feedback. Many of those things I can actually look for in hats as I start my quest. Thanks for the great info.

Before I make some sweeping generalities, they must be prefaced by stating that such generalities are limited in their usefulness when we are talking about the desirable stock of vintage hats (say from the 60's and older). There are so many variables with regards to felt weight and quality. Some hats should be more stiff than others. Some hats will naturally feel more plush or soft without necessarily indicating "better" quality. From my collection, my 3x Open Road feels softer to the touch and has less stiffener than my Stetson 100, which is "on paper," a higher quality. Also, while we've partially placed together a loose hierarchy of felt qualities, whatever happened in the decades between is affecting our perceptions in unknown ways. What's true for one example, even within the same quality, may not be for another if it was produced at a different year (or if its owner wore it on the rain more, or had it reblocked)

if there's a bound edge, pay particular attention to the seam where they join. It should be need and the ends of the ribbon should be folded over and neatly matched together, while being centered in the rear of the hat.

The condition of the sweatband is important. Older hats tend to have wider sweatbands about 2" in width. This doesn't apply to every old hat, but it was rarely seen in later hats (say, post war or so).

Ribbon tacking stitches should be unobtrusive and on the finished edge part of the grosgrain ribbon. No clear poly thread 1/4 way up the ribbon like a modern Stetson.

Sewn in liners are generally preferable as the glued in liners are the mark of a hat industry cutting corners.

Also pay attention to dye saturation. If you've ever watched a "how it's made" video on modern Stetsons, you may have seen them talk about powder in the finish...This is to cover up uneven spots that generally weren't seen in vintage hats because the attention to detail during the dye process was greater. This is one of those things that's hard to describe, but if you look at a really clean vintage hat and compare it to a modern,you'll see that a lot of vintage hats just seem to catch the light differently. This is a product of greater attention to detail throughout. IMHO, Optimo's felts, which come from Fepsa in Portugal, are the best modern felts and the deep, rich colors on their website aren't just good lighting.

 

[drmaxtejeda]

Thanks, Bill, that is exactly what the kind of info I'm looking for but can you tell me what to look for before I get to that point? Is the stitching on the headband tighter, is the felt softer or smoother, is the stitching of the ribbon to the hat less visible, will water droplets bead up more/less, is the liner sewn or glued...all those sorts of things.

I did have to opportunity to visit Optimo in Chicago a few months back but knew so little then that I don't know what I was looking at...and knew I could not afford any of theirs at the moment...I'll make them one of my "dream hats" I suppose. I have been looking at some of the other custom makers, specifically, Gannon, and he seems to have a good following and prices are much more within my budget so I'll probably go that route for now...but that is still 8 to 10 weeks out.

Thanks again, Bill, I always appreciate your insight.

Last I looked, Bill was selling an excellent Stetson One Hundred in the classified section for 300 dollars. You won't find a hat that is much better than that one

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[jlee562]

Here are some visuals that may be generally useful:
This first hat is the binding on my modern Premier Stratoliner. For a modern hat, I've seen worse, but it's not the cleanest joining.

Top side is cleaner, but stupid poly thread sticking out:

Here's a vintage royal Stetson Deluxe Supper Club

Possibly pre-War Select quality featherweight derby


Almost invisible on top.

 

[Rmccamey]

Perfect examples. I see, I see! Thanks for the photo's, JLee. It does look like a lot is in the details. I'll have to carry my magnifying glass!

Thanks again.

Here are some visuals that may be generally useful:
This first hat is the binding on my modern Premier Stratoliner. For a modern hat, I've seen worse, but it's not the cleanest joining.

Top side is cleaner, but stupid poly thread sticking out:

Here's a vintage royal Stetson Deluxe Supper Club

Possibly pre-War Select quality featherweight derby


Almost invisible on top.

 

[Air Wing Marine]

I'm having a granite hat with burgundy ribbon made. It will be a diamond crown, 4 1/2 inches at crease top and 2 1/4 brim. My first inclination is to go with a 1 5/8 ribbon but am wondering about a wider ribbon. I dont want it to be too ostentatious. Any opinions? Any pics of a hat with same crown height and wider ribbon?

 

[Redfokker]

I'm having a granite hat with burgundy ribbon made. It will be a diamond crown, 4 1/2 inches at crease top and 2 1/4 brim. My first inclination is to go with a 1 5/8 ribbon but am wondering about a wider ribbon. I dont want it to be too ostentatious. Any opinions? Any pics of a hat with same crown height and wider ribbon?

This is my new Granite with a burgundy (wine) ribbon. My brim is in the Whippet style so more like 2 5/8 with a wide binding. I think the ribbon is 1 3/4" (it is sleeping in it's box right now in the back room) if memory serves. Hope this helps. Who is doing your custom?
Granite is a strange bird, looks like the actual rocks, kind of greenish in some light, dark gray in others. Chameleon.

 

[Air Wing Marine]

Cool hat. Mike at Northwest is making mine. The wider ribbon looks good. My crown is shorter and I wonder how a wider ribbon would look

 

[Tukwila]

Cool hat. Mike at Northwest is making mine. The wider ribbon looks good. My crown is shorter and I wonder how a wider ribbon would look

Mike also made @Redfokker 's hat.

You can ask Mike to send you pictures of your hat with different widths of ribbon draped around the crown for you to get an idea of how it looks.

 

[Zombie_61]

Cool hat. Mike at Northwest is making mine. The wider ribbon looks good. My crown is shorter and I wonder how a wider ribbon would look

Quick and dirty Photoshop work, but maybe the visual will help you decide:

I don't think the slightly wider ribbon on the hat in the middle looks ostentatious at all, but I'm glad it's not my decision to make because I like both of the "lowered crown" hats.

 

[Air Wing Marine]

Quick and dirty Photoshop work, but maybe the visual will help you decide:

I don't think the slightly wider ribbon on the hat in the middle looks ostentatious at all, but I'm glad it's not my decision to make because I like both of the "lowered crown" hats.

 

[Air Wing Marine]

Wow:

Great photo shop job! It really helps me visualize my options.
Thank you

 

[Rmccamey]

I've been talking to Gannon about that exact color combination (with a smaller dark grey binding). I'm going with the granite and burgundy (reds) rather than the steel (that seems to run too blue for me). Thanks for sharing.

This is my new Granite with a burgundy (wine) ribbon. My brim is in the Whippet style so more like 2 5/8 with a wide binding. I think the ribbon is 1 3/4" (it is sleeping in it's box right now in the back room) if memory serves. Hope this helps. Who is doing your custom?
Granite is a strange bird, looks like the actual rocks, kind of greenish in some light, dark gray in others. Chameleon.
View attachment 141480

 

[Redfokker]

Cool hat. Mike at Northwest is making mine. The wider ribbon looks good. My crown is shorter and I wonder how a wider ribbon would look

He will send you some images of the different ribbon widths so you can pick. Just ask him. An email would be best, he gets a ton of calls during the day. I think with that brim width it would have a late 1950s vibe for sure with a wider ribbon.
(edit) I should have read the following posts, looks like there is agreement from folks about picking ribbon width.