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[Engrishman]

Ah, I see. That explains it adequately. My thanks, Yeps.

Now, for my last question of the day: I've always wondered, so what is the main difference between a Bowler and a Homburg? Both seem to have the brims fixed in an upward-pointing curl, so I haven't honestly seen much difference between the two because of their similar shape and the fact both are made from felt.

 

[The Good]

Ah, I see. That explains it adequately. My thanks, Yeps.

Now, for my last question of the day: I've always wondered, so what is the main difference between a Bowler and a Homburg? Both seem to have the brims fixed in an upward-pointing curl, so I haven't honestly seen much difference between the two because of their similar shape and the fact both are made from felt.

I have never personally handled an actual bowler hat, but I think those are more stiff in their felt than homburgs, which are relatively soft in comparison. That is at least how my homburg feels/felt. But the most obvious difference is their crown; bowlers are uncreased while homburgs will usually have a center dent.

 

[fenris]

Does anybody have a pattern for making hat liners? I was planning to make my own liners and personalizing them.

I wonder if you can use those iron-on thingies on satin? Has anybody tried?

 

[Yeps]

Ah, I see. That explains it adequately. My thanks, Yeps.

Now, for my last question of the day: I've always wondered, so what is the main difference between a Bowler and a Homburg? Both seem to have the brims fixed in an upward-pointing curl, so I haven't honestly seen much difference between the two because of their similar shape and the fact both are made from felt.

To echo and elaborate on what Blondie said, the difference is the crown. A good bowler is stiff almost like a hard hat, made by some very elaborate shellacking process. A homburg, on the other hand, is pretty much like a fedora, and at the genesis of both hats, the terms were interchangeable. The brim on a homburg, however, is curled. This can be stiff like a bowler, or just be curled, but still be relatively soft.

 

[bowlerman]

To echo and elaborate on what Blondie said, the difference is the crown. A good bowler is stiff almost like a hard hat, made by some very elaborate shellacking process. A homburg, on the other hand, is pretty much like a fedora, and at the genesis of both hats, the terms were interchangeable. The brim on a homburg, however, is curled. This can be stiff like a bowler, or just be curled, but still be relatively soft.

ditto...
the traditional bowler was used as protection from tree branches while driving a coach or carriage or something of the nature, with horses. So it was pretty much a helmet in terms of build-- you could probably stand on it, and the crown was meant to remain open.
the homburg, though pencil-rolled, is of a much more supple construction, and I'll reiterate that normally it is seen with a center crease, sometimes with dents, forward or side.

 

[Engrishman]

So a Homburg is essentially a soft felt fedora shaped like a bowler hat with the brim rolled up, or a softer version of said bowler. Got it.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Derbies/Bowlers vs. Homburgs

My two cents worth:

To the general public today they look very similar, and if you are comparing modern examples to each other, they will have many similarities. Historically speaking, however, they are vastly different hats beyond the shellac.

The crown profile of a Derby/Bowler is very specific, and would not be used on a Homburg, and vice-versa. Generally speaking, Derbies have little to no taper at all - though they were offered with some front-back taper from time to time as styles changed, and some with side taper. Homburg blocks, as with fedora blocks, will always have some bit of taper built in, even if it's not noticeable. This is to allow for the crown crease, which would look ridiculous without some taper.

Again, historically speaking, if we look at the first half of the twentieth century -- which is from when most all Derbies on eBay will date -- An open-crown Homburg will almost always be taller than a Derby. By the twentieth century, a 5 1/2-inch crown on a Derby was the general extreme height limit, but usually they were shorter, probably averaging about 5 inches.

The ribbon width on a Derby is narrower than on a Homburg. A Derby ribbon will average around an inch wide, whereas a Homburg, being more formal, will have a wider ribbon, around 1.5 to 2 inches.

During the first half of the twentieth century, in general Derbies will have narrower brims than Homburgs. Again, that's general, and there are exceptions.

The single most visible difference is in the curl. Derbies/Bowlers almost always have a D'Orsay curl with a very tight, short curl in front and back, and a wider curl on the sides, which may or may not be ironed nearly flat. Derbies and top hats share the same curl, and probably have more in common with each other than the Derby and Homburg. A Homburg will be much more uniform around the circumference, though the front and back may be slightly shorter than the sides. The shellac is important to maintain the shape of the D'Orsay curl, which is why Homburgs won't utilize it. The D'Orsay curl is much more difficult to make, and more time consuming, which is why it will vanish by the '50s, and modern Derbies and Homburgs will share the same curl today.

Brad

 

[bowlerman]

I was hoping you'd intervene, Brad! I'd forgotten all about the D'Orsay curl, and I guess I kind of thought that ribbon width was up for grabs.

General question:

Can you really turn a regular into a long oval by simply using a jack on a hat that's already the correct circumference-- or is that more of a make-shift solution?

I heard once that in order to make a true long oval out of a regular hat one would need to remove the memory or reed, then stretch the hat, and remake/resew the sweatband altogether.

 

[BlackBrim]

When is the Dobbs 2011 spring hats expected to come out?

 

[Viktor]

Does anyone have any info on Erie Made Fine Hats and Kokoros Hatters?

 

[kfs189]

Hello--

While cleaning out our attic, I came across a nice Disney Lancer, still in box. It is in excellent condition, appears unworn or nearly so. Ribbon is 1 7/8 (I see that is a common question). Box corners are split, but could be taped. Thought I'd ask the experts on it's worth and see if there was interest here if I wanted to sell it. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

http://s1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/skymoose/

 

[Lefty]

That's one of the stingiest brims I've ever seen!

Size is normally a pretty big consideration with hats. Often, the bigger the size, peaking at about 7 3/8 or 7 1/2, the greater the value. We've got a lot of Disneys here, but most are considerably older than that one, which is likely a 60s lid. Older lids tend to go for more money.

Ebay will dictate the price, but I can't see that one going over $40, regardless of the size.

 

[randooch]

It's a 7 1/4, according the size stamped into the sweat. What a stingy brim! Wow!

 

[Lefty]

I've never looked for the size in a sweat stamp. Very odd.

 

[Levallois]

When did Stetson start and stop having a woven liner rather than a printed one on western hats? Like this:

Thanks!

 

[Lefty]

I know someone has more precise info, but if you search "last drop", "embroidered", and "liner" (in google, with site:thefedoralounge.com), you should find some results. I think there's agreement that the last drop liner (not yours, but yours is quite rare) lasted into the 60s. In my signature, try clicking on "crest". There's some info there.

 

[Levallois]

Thanks Lefty! Alot of good info and photos too of embroidered classic Stetson last drop of water but none of a rider like mine that I could find. I'm dating this to the mid-late 1940s. Is that about right?

John

 

[Lefty]

Based on the better shot of the crest on the sweat that you posted in the Nutria Quality thread, I'd say anywhere from mid/late-40s to early/mid-50s. I'm basing that on the tall, rather than hunched, beaver and the stars, rather than leaf, in the upper left of the shield.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Based on the better shot of the crest on the sweat that you posted in the Nutria Quality thread, I'd say anywhere from mid/late-40s to early/mid-50s. I'm basing that on the tall, rather than hunched, beaver and the stars, rather than leaf, in the upper left of the shield.

That may well be right, Lefty. I would just point out, for general purposes, that the "stars/leaf" method of dating is generally more reliable when there is a crest on the sweat and the liner. This is because there are many, many examples of lids with the "stars" crest on the sweat, but with the "leaf" crest on the liner. Obviously, the existence of the leaf crest indicates a date from the very early 50's on. It's a little trickier when a "Last Drop" liner is involved. At that point, the size tag and other qualities enter the picture in terms of trying to narrow things down.

 

[Lefty]

I was waiting for you to bring up the liner/sweat dichotomy, which is why I "showed my work".