Are good manners now vintage?

[LizzieMaine]

We're actually talking about two completely different things here, and you know that as well as I do. I'm talking about interpersonal relationships on the neighborhood level. I've said that I didn't live in a neighborhood driven by competitive pressures, and I meant exactly that: we *didn't care* about all that stereotypical one-upsmanship. The people I grew up around worked blue-collar jobs, drove old cars, lived in old houses furnished with old furniture, wore the same kind of clothes, ate the same kind of food, and *we were perfectly fine with that,* because *that's the way we'd always lived.* And I think, to bring this back to the main point of this thread, that that environment tended to help us to get along better with each other and to be more courteous and understanding of others in our daily dealings.


Unless you somehow know more about my life than I do, I don't see what's so unclear about that. Vas you dere, Sharlie?

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

but it's quite offensive when I'm expected to treat older people with more respect than they treat me with, simply because they are older. If they're older, then surely they've had the time to learn the respect that they demand from me. They may have the experience, but every one of us is capable of rational thought

Not to be cynical but there was a time when most older folks actually had wisdom. It's quite disheartening, but today there seems to be a far greater percentage of "adults" out there who appear to be in a state of perpetual adolescence. Not very confidence-inspiring to think that as they grow older the next generation will be looking to these ancient teenagers for "wisdom."

As to class differences alluded to by a number of posters, once upon a time the upper classes set the standards for dress, deportment, etc. that the less exalted sought to emulate to the best of their ability. Now it's the reverse! Today entertainment celebrities are the most visible members of America's upper class and their antics, lovingly chronicled by the tabloid media, only serves to validate boorish and loutish behavior resulting in a cultural race to the bottom.

 

[Paisley]

Maybe it was just the people I was friends with when I was a kid in the 80s, but for the most part we cared more about independence than overpriced dry goods. Now that I'm 41 and doing well, I still feel the same way.

My parents, on the other hand, both born around 1930, decided when I was a kid to move from our happy little home on a block full of kids my age to a pricier neighborhood where none of us fit in. [huh] They have no regrets, they've got a house full of junk. Not a thought about how our lives might have been better with all the money they'd have saved by not moving. Age doesn't always make people wise.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

We're actually talking about two completely different things here, and you know that as well as I do. I'm talking about interpersonal relationships on the neighborhood level. I've said that I didn't live in a neighborhood driven by competitive pressures, and I meant exactly that: we *didn't care* about all that stereotypical one-upsmanship. The people I grew up around worked blue-collar jobs, drove old cars, lived in old houses furnished with old furniture, wore the same kind of clothes, ate the same kind of food, and *we were perfectly fine with that,* because *that's the way we'd always lived.* And I think, to bring this back to the main point of this thread, that that environment tended to help us to get along better with each other and to be more courteous and understanding of others in our daily dealings.


Unless you somehow know more about my life than I do, I don't see what's so unclear about that. Vas you dere, Sharlie?

No I do not know more about your life than you. I just identify with it as what you describe is the same way I grew up; just a different location. I simply acknowledge that competition has been part of the culture in the United States from it's inception.....

 

[Marc Chevalier]

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Affectionately dedicated to Carlisle Blues and LizzieMaine (or vice versa):



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[Tomasso]

lol

 

[John in Covina]

My parents, on the other hand, both born around 1930, decided when I was a kid to move from our happy little home on a block full of kids my age to a pricier neighborhood where none of us fit in. [huh] They have no regrets, they've got a house full of junk. Not a thought about how our lives might have been better with all the money they'd have saved by not moving. Age doesn't always make people wise.

****
Were they motivated by love and the idea of giving you an improved life or were they being totally selfish by the move?

 

[Randy]

Over the last month I have been giving thought to how often I see people out and about completely lost in their in own little worlds.

You may find this book interesting, I did. It goes on in some detail, referencing a great number of studies, about what you are describing.

My own life experiences support your basic observations - that people are in general fairly self-obsessed and unobservant of how their choices affect others - although I have not studied the concept enough to comment on why, or how things were in the past in general, or even if this is something that exists outside my own personal experiences or not. I do tend to feel that people are less considerate of others now than they were in my personal past, but anecdotal observations do not carry much weight...

- Randy

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Thanks Mark lol lol lol

This is the last time I try to agree with anybody

 

[Paisley]

****
Were they motivated by love and the idea of giving you an improved life or were they being totally selfish by the move?

They said they wanted a nicer house.

In general, I think people remodel or move because they think it'll make them happier. If my experience is any indication, unless you have to move for work or school, or to assert your independence, you might as well stay put.

 

[Panache]

You may find this book interesting, I did. It goes on in some detail, referencing a great number of studies, about what you are describing.

My own life experiences support your basic observations - that people are in general fairly self-obsessed and unobservant of how their choices affect others - although I have not studied the concept enough to comment on why, or how things were in the past in general, or even if this is something that exists outside my own personal experiences or not. I do tend to feel that people are less considerate of others now than they were in my personal past, but anecdotal observations do not carry much weight...

- Randy

Randy,

It was my intent to simply bow out of this thread because I felt that I had failed to express myself properly and didn't wish to promote an apparently old debate here. However this book you have recommended seems to be exactly what I was trying to get across.

My thought wasn't to complain about a lack of manners but to offer my idea of what may cause this deficiency.

It is my belief that the whole basic concept of manners/politeness is about getting along with other people. The mindset of a polite person, a well mannered person, is one that looks outward at the people around them and is considerate to them. When an individuals' mindset becomes introverted and is fixed solely on their own self interests then they become an inconvenience to others. Worse yet, they are unable to recognize that they are being rude because they look at every situation from they viewpoint of their own sense of entitlement.

It doesn't matter if a lady opens a door for a gentlemen or vice versa, the core value is the same- a recognition of a fellow person and a willingness to help.

There is a great line in Dicken's A Christmas Carol where Scrooge's nephew Fred talks about the Christmas Spirit and how it makes others

"...by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think people below them as if they really were... fellow- passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys"


I certainly understand how we can all be in a rush and focused on the things that we have to do, but it is a good thing to note our "fellow passengers".

Cheers

Jamie

 

[Miss Neecerie]

I certainly understand how we can all be in a rush and focused on the things that we have to do, but it is a good thing to note our "fellow passengers".

That's congeniality, rather then manners.

Someone can be aloof and yet perfectly polite, while someone else can be friendly and yet rude in other ways.

 

[jessesgirl08]

They said they wanted a nicer house.

In general, I think people remodel or move because they think it'll make them happier. If my experience is any indication, unless you have to move for work or school, or to assert your independence, you might as well stay put.

I agree with you Paisley, putting down roots and maintaining them is the way to go and is not something people do very often these days, even though i grew up having everything handed to me on a silver platter and never worrying or wanting for anything, i am still of the mindset that i am better off repairing my car or home then running off and buying a new one with higher payments/mortgage. But on the other hand as a parent i also realize that we as parents sometimes do silly things out of love for our children, maybe your parents wanted the nicer house to make life more comfortable for the whole family it must have been more of a sacrifice for them to work harder to pay for the nicer house believing that it would be better for the children. since becoming a parent i have learned to look at the faults in my parents and the mistakes they made with new eyes, knowing that parents even the best parents make mistakes.

 

[John in Covina]

I regularly get together with a group of people for a discussion group setting. There are teens to quite elderly and a bit frail that come. One week it was unseasonably hot and we were not able to get the AC going in time to cool the hall to comfortable temperatures. We turned on the fans and brought in all of the bottled water we had from the frig but there was not enough for everyone. I suggested we give the elderly and anyone that had a physical condition first choice while the rest of us rugged, robustly healthy ones get water from the kitchen area (faucet) if needed.

There was a small number of people for whom the "get mine first" attitude came out in spades and some people were even trying to grab 2 bottles for themselves without regard for the others. Their sense of self over others and self entitlement was truly amazing.

 

[sixties.nut]

Simple Observation (from a simpleton)

Some of the things I like best about this site is the level of intelligence this forum offers, the bar is set pretty high with regards to the folks I usually have exposure with here in my daily travels. Just when I had begun to think I had hit the end of the internet I found this site again. My first time here I googled for a fedora hat I needed to get in big hurry and I didn't have the time to see what this was all about, social networking. Hmm, what the hell is that all about? I need a hat big time.

This time around I needed to find a source to get a jacket made for me, this time in not so much a hurry to get it. Sure enough google landed me right smack dab in your vestibule so's I joined up! (And I've been lost ever since but thats another story).

One thing I've noticed since wandering around in here and particularly this topic, was that there were a good many younger people here than I could imagine. Not only that but international folks as well. Is spruces the place up a bit from my vantage point.

One thing I've noticed from both the older and younger generations is they have one thing in common. Manners, not only in their disscussions but their points of views. No one has gotten out of hand with this and no where near out of line so far anyway.

I was wondering about the cycle theory, I suspect that we -the older folks- who were taught manners in the home (some more forcefully than others <wink><wink>) while the gals of my day where given an extra helping in the schools! Back then those younger people were in the minority, at least in my little town as it were.

I am sure that the young folks here can agree that this is the case as well in their generation without a doubt. None the less these people have shown good restraint in expressing their views on this subject and thus in effect manners to those of us who had greater demands handed down to us from our elders.

A good case in point I'll share was a recent in-person conversation which dealt with the circumstance of when 'we' were kids, and while in the summer months would get up, get dressed, head out on our bikes and never be seen again until dinner/suppertime. Now a days this would get a parent locked up for child abuse. While we learned a good many things out on our own, some good, some bad. The children of today will NEVER get to have the exposures of learning different neighborhoods, different cultures, different backgrounds, etc. etc. except for the clinical decorum of the classrooms.

Today some folks consider 'public' as wild west city and for the most part it cannot be denied. It certainly is a different time taking into consider the level of meaness of earlier years to the level of meaness of current times. I for one take notice of the young people who extend common courtesies and manners even if only when they are called upon.

I happen to notice the rudeness factor only while shopping mostly, and for that reason alone I attempt to be more respectful to all I encounter during that small window of time. Then for those who make fun of my shoes, I hope they don't take notice the extra can of Chase & Sanborn I slipped into their trolly while they weren't looking.

Warmest Regards,
sixties

 

[Tomasso]

They said they wanted a nicer house.

Generally, nicer homes = better schools. Was this the case?

 

[Carlisle Blues]

In general, I think people remodel or move because they think it'll make them happier. If my experience is any indication, unless you have to move for work or school, or to assert your independence, you might as well stay put.

The reality is you take yourself wherever you go......[huh]

 

[Paisley]

Generally, nicer homes = better schools. Was this the case?

I never heard that Columbine HS (where I went) was any better than Littleton HS (where I would have gone).

I now live in an 800 s.f. bungalow a few blocks from the train tracks. Englewood HS (where the neighbor kids go) has a 90% graduation rate and turns out a lot of Boettcher scholars. A lot of the kids come to Englewood from other school districts. My sense is that parents' and kids' values have more to do with schools than the size of the lawns does.

 

[Foofoogal]

fftopic: sort of.

Today entertainment celebrities are the most visible members of America's upper class and their antics, lovingly chronicled by the tabloid media, only serves to validate boorish and loutish behavior resulting in a cultural race to the bottom.

As I do believe past and current sitcoms pretty much showed life as it was or is at the time...
I was watching Andy Griffith show the other day. A producer came to town and decided to do a movie about Mayberry. Well all the towns folks got all excited and wanted to be like Movie Stars. They changed their clothing, changed their shops to show things like Movie Stars haircuts etc. Even were going to cut down the very old Oak tree.
The producer was horrified as he stated the reason he wanted to do the movie was to see Salt of the Earth simple people.
Sayings such as:
"if it will play in Peoria" were real and true. Middle America was and is different.
Like Lizzie I miss Mayberry. I really do but think I have found a taste of it recently and after this thread will never look at it the same again.
A true gift.
If you can find 1, 2, 20 or a whole town of genuine decent people with manners and a sense of community you better hold on for dear life now.
Kindness responds to kindness.
I am having to relearn many things I had lost somewhere along the way.
I do believe it or not that most people are good and put in different social settings what they are made of will come out.
Simple sociology will teach you environment plays a huge role in anyones life.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

A good case in point I'll share was a recent in-person conversation which dealt with the circumstance of when 'we' were kids, and while in the summer months would get up, get dressed, head out on our bikes and never be seen again until dinner/suppertime. Now a days this would get a parent locked up for child abuse. While we learned a good many things out on our own, some good, some bad. The children of today will NEVER get to have the exposures of learning different neighborhoods, different cultures, different backgrounds, etc. etc. except for the clinical decorum of the classrooms.

The important ingredient was that BEFORE our parents set us loose on an unsuspecting populace they took the time to sit us down and give us a little lecture about not talking to strangers -- a lecture often reinforced by some kind of lurid horror story. In retrospect while such stories might have been a bit overblown it DID get the point across! And as we explored our little world (with those lurid horror stories firmly in mind) we quickly learned to discern danger and steer clear of anyone giving off bad vibes no matter how friendly they appeared to be. At least that was my experience.

Unfortunately, I get the sense that many parents today find it much easier to keep the kids on a short leash and plop them in front of the TV or game controller than to actually show some parenting skills.