ALL REPRO R.A.F. Irvin type jackets

[dit dah]

fftopic: Hey Windsock, is that a WW2 sarong?

Interesting post this and truely superb knowledge chaps, thanks.

 

[aswatland]

On a visit to Eastman's premises some years ago I was shown the original jacket that they had copied to make their reproductions. It was made by Wareings and had a Lightning main zip with a Dot box fitted. I have seen other original jackets with the same arrangement, and some with Dot zips (box and track) with Lightning pullers. It has been speculated that these are repairs, as the later 'double trunnion' cast Dot puller is notoriously fragile.

This is interesting H.J. In the Golden Book there are pictures of what I presume is the very jacket. It is claimed to be by Wareings. However this jacket has features which were not typical of Wareings: a rounded collar, small collar rings and bare metal vent rings. These were all features of Links. The 1942 ELC repro jacket has a square ended collar typical of both IAC and Wareings, yet it has the small collar rings which were typical of IAC. Every Wareings Irvin I have seen, and I have seen many, have large collar rings and wide belt loops-featues not on the 1942 ELC irvin or on the original in the Golden Book. The Lightning zip on this jacket is a replacement as you know the Dot cast double trunnion sliders were prone to damage.

 

[Windsock]

fftopic: Hey Windsock, is that a WW2 sarong?

, thanks.

Now there's an idea to follow up for those of us in thermally challenging regions...

To be exact this one is actually a Lhungi

The one biggest issue with all repros i've seen is the authenticity of the zipper and puller. They lack soul.

Don't forget about this one...

http://warartcolors.com/the_few/2008_9/jackets/raf_irvin.html

 

[Nighthawk]

Does anyone have experience with Irvins from Real McCoys / The Few?

EDIT: Doh, didn't see your link, Andrew.

NH

 

[H.Johnson]

I don't have access to the 'Golden Book' that you mention, and I can only go with what I was told by Alan, but the jacket I saw at the time they were finalising the production of the reproduction jacket had looked (to me) like a Wareings (it didn't have a label) for the reasons you give.

I don't see why that one has to be the same jacket as in the Golden Book - the Eastmans (pere et fils) must have had access to a number of original jackets. I think that the eventual production ELC reproduction mid-war jacket incorporates features from several maker's jackets - it's a composite like their other 'house' flight jackets. If my original posting (below) implied that I though the ELC RAF jacket is completely a copy of a Wareings jacket, that isn't what I meant to convey.

BTW, I am less convinced that all the jackets from a particular manufacturer had such a consistent set of features - a 'house style' - as I suspect you are yourself. I am reasonably sure that I have seen different fittings (e.g. collar rings, zips etc.) and cut (number of panels, collar shape) from the same manufacturer over a period of time. I feel that we no so little about how these jackets were produced in wartime that we should be careful about speculation. Just my opinion.

Added later - equally I wouldn't assume that a zip with a Dot stopper box and a Lightning puller is a puller added to an existing Dot zip. The profile of the teeth on a Lightning is different from a Dot and I am sure that I have seen zips where a Dot box has been added to a Lightning zip (with Lightning puller). This may be a repair, but I don't see why it can't equally be an original modification installed at the time the jacket was made up. Again, just my opinion.

On a visit to Eastman's premises some years ago I was shown the original jacket that they had copied to make their reproductions. It was made by Wareings and had a Lightning main zip with a Dot box fitted. I have seen other original jackets with the same arrangement, and some with Dot zips (box and track) with Lightning pullers. It has been speculated that these are repairs, as the later 'double trunnion' cast Dot puller is notoriously fragile.

This is interesting H.J. In the Golden Book there are pictures of what I presume is the very jacket. It is claimed to be by Wareings. However this jacket has features which were not typical of Wareings: a rounded collar, small collar rings and bare metal vent rings. These were all features of Links. The 1942 ELC repro jacket has a square ended collar typical of both IAC and Wareings, yet it has the small collar rings which were typical of IAC. Every Wareings Irvin I have seen, and I have seen many, have large collar rings and wide belt loops-featues not on the 1942 ELC irvin or on the original in the Golden Book. The Lightning zip on this jacket is a replacement as you know the Dot cast double trunnion sliders were prone to damage.

 

[John Lever]

I have a sample of the leather from The Few RAF, not much like any original I have seen.

 

[H.Johnson]

...and don't even start on about the zips!

 

[aswatland]

HJ, I have studied the pictures in the ELC Golden Book and there are two different original Irvins pictured, one which is attributed to Wareings by Gary, yet has all the features of a Links made jacket. The other has a different main zip puller/collar shape and it is this jacket for which there are several close-up shots of the detail to compare it with the 1942 ELC jacket. It does not have any of the features of a typical Wareing's jacket. Only this jacket has the lightning slider/pull on a Dot zip track. Of course it served ELC well as it helped to justify their style of repro zips!

I am not convinced about your argument against "house" features on Irvins. There were several distinguishing features (not zips!) associated with specific makers and the labels I have seen with the makers' names support this view. From the many Irvins I have seen, the late War multi-panelled ones are much more difficult to attribute to maker, as there was variation within the same contract and of course no maker put their names on the labels then.

BTW I have owned jackets with Dot sliders on Lightning zips and Lightning zip sliders on Dot zips and they were most likely replacements judging by the disturbance around the zip stoppers.

 

[H.Johnson]

Andrew,

As I don't have the 'Golden Book' to which you refer, I can't possibly comment on either of your points. I was referring to a real jacket that I saw at Davey's Cross more than ten years ago. That was a Wareing jacket.

I've a good idea - you carry on believing what you believe and I'll carry on believing what I believe, but before I leave the subject I would like to make one last personal statement on the subject of 'Irvin' jackets.

I have owned or seen a lot of RAF sheepskin flying jackets over forty something years (I bought my first as a motorcycle jacket from the 'Army and Navy' in 1967) and the thing that strikes me most about them is their sheer variability. There are so many variations in pattern and so few of the late war examples have labels that I don't see how anyone can attribute them to any specific maker. If a jacket has lost its label or has never had one, I don't see how we can say that it wasn't a copy of a jacket by a particular maker made by someone else. That's how patterns were used in the military contracting business as late as the 1970s (I know because I was there). Company A would make a control sample, which would be copied by Company B that was awarded the contract. Therefore good examples of the contract jackets would be virtually indistinguishable from the sample jacket.

Until someone can give me specific details of the contracting and production control processes that were in place in war time, I don't see how we can be at all authorative about how or where these unlabelled jackets (which are by far the majority remaining) were made. How do we know that (say) a Links jacket was not used as a control sample for jackets that were made by another (unlabelled) contractor?

I, too, have seen most possible combinations of the various types of Dot and Lightning tracks, pullers, boxes and stoppers and, like you, I suspect that some were replacements. With others I couldn't see any reason to doubt that they were 'as installed' so I take the most logical option, that fasteners with mixtures of parts were installed when the garments were made.

There, my last word on the subject of Irvin jackets.

 

[aswatland]

Andrew,

There, my last word on the subject of Irvin jackets.

Only time will tell if this is the case.

 

[PADDY]

ALL REPRO Irvin type jackets - Can anyone get it right..?

THIS is where we discuss just 'how good are they?' , all the many differentiations and prices and manufacturers...and just why would you bother to buy a repro instead of an original? ...etc.

Once again, photos and discussions on 'JUST THE REPROS' here please. Over time, I will disseminate relevent info from the GREAT IRVIN THREAD into these types of sub categories (all easier for discussion and referencing by newbies and oldies alike ).

 

[H.Johnson]

Early reproduction RAF jackets

I was chatting to some distinguished RAF clothing and flying equipment collectors over Christmas and (having worn out a discussion of originals) we began to discuss early reproductions of RAF sheepskin jackets. I'm becoming interested in the topic of early repros of WW2 jackets (there is a nice 'orphan A-2' thread on the subject elsewhere) as I feel it represents in some way the history of a hobby (and an industry) that has grown rapidly. Facts are forgotten equally rapidly, and perhaps if we don't catch some of this information now, it will be gone for ever - much like facts about originals.

Many people believe that Moto-Lita (later Aviation Leathercraft) was the first reproduction RAF jacket in the late 70s. One of our number offered that it there were accurate reproductions made much earlier that this - certainly the 1950s and possibly even the 1940s. A surprising claim, but one that he said he could prove. Well, he has, thanks to an early 50s motorcycling magazine and a Pride and Clark advertisement. P&C were, of course leading vendors of motorcycle accessories and clothing. I don't know whether P&C ever manufactured their own clothing or 'labelled' but I have seen their coats advertised in early Belstaff adverts alongside the Stoke-on-Trent company's own products!

Anyway, my friend is right. In an early 50s P&C advertisement is a jacket called a 'Flight II', with a line drawing illustration and a description to the effect that the jacket is 'just like those worn by RAF pilots' and is made of 'West Australian sheepskin'. The drawing (which can be seen quite clearly in the original under magnification) is very like an original - and probably a Links. Of course, we can't know the details like zips etc. but based on what I have seen in other early P&C jackets it is likely to have been either a Lightning or an Aero. I would say that the sleeves in the drawing are a bit more 'tubular' (i.e. parallel) than most originals I have seen, but apart from that the drawing definitely appears to show a reproduction RAF sheepskin jacket, in 1952.

Someone else offered to the discussion an interesting possibility. Some clothing vendors of the period (e.g. D. Lewis) had a permanent inclusion in their adverts offering to buy used wartime RAF clothing and equipment. Why and what did they do with it? Suppose, surmised my colleague, that they had it reconditioned and resold it. Was this, then, what a 'Flight II' jacket was? Who knows, but the existence of this replica is interesting (to me, at least). I can remember (early 1960s) when you could buy what I thought were surplus RAF sheepsking flying jacket from High Street shops like the Famous Army Stores. I bought one in 1967 and have always assumed that it was an unlabelled original, but suppose it was a postwar reproduction? As the jacket is long gone, and I can't remember it in great detail, I will almost certainly never know.

 

[ethanedwards]

Interesting conjecture Mr. J. With originals commonly available as cheap surplus though, would there have been much of a market for reproductions at this time? I suppose there might have been the wish for ownership of a factory fresh jacket though, people must have been desperately tired of post war austerity.

I like the idea that D. Lewis were 'recycling' jackets in this way. It reminded me of an ad that was constantly in Flypast magazine some years ago, from a Japanese company who were always looking to buy original Irvins for 'best prices paid'. Would many people
have responded to this kind of advertising?

Incidentally, I wondered if ELC had originally touted their broken grain sheepskins in their early days, would they have been inundated with returns and complaints about quality and 'faults' in the materials? As always, more questions than answers..........

Happy New Year to all Loungers, health and happiness in 2009.

 

[Windsock]

..... In an early 50s P&C advertisement is a jacket called a 'Flight II', with a line drawing illustration and a description to the effect that the jacket is 'just like those worn by RAF pilots' and is made of 'West Australian sheepskin'. The drawing (which can be seen quite clearly in the original under magnification) is very like an original - and probably a Links. Of course, we can't know the details like zips etc. but based on what I have seen in other early P&C jackets it is likely to have been either a Lightning or an Aero. I would say that the sleeves in the drawing are a bit more 'tubular' (i.e. parallel) than most originals I have seen, but apart from that the drawing definitely appears to show a reproduction RAF sheepskin jacket, in 1952.........

These may well be the dodgy vinyl backed collar type with clunky clix zips you occasionally see on Ebay.

They are obviously old and fool some as they have many of the features of an original but really are lacking- I think they may also have poorly shaped sleeves that appear quite wide at the base as well...

 

[H.Johnson]

RAF reproductions

Andrew,

They could be as you describe (you can't tell from the advert) but I've seen a number of those (they have vynil joining strips as well as collar and belt) and I always associate them with a later period than those in the P&C advert, but we will probably never know.

Off topic, but in the late 1960s P&C used to sell a jacket that was a sort of cross between a D-1 and a B-6 with two (vynil) B-3 style pockets. Mmmm. Nice...

Back to topic - a good example of an 'orphan' repro RAF jacket (def. - a repro. jacket that was advanced for its time but has now been 'left behind') would be those made in the 1980s by The Cockpit Clothing Company of Canute Way, Southampton (not to be confused with the US Cockpit operation). Way before ELC and Aero they were doing an early war, large panel style called 'the Battle of Britain' jacket and (the only repro version I have seen) a hooded 'FAA' version. The BoB was a good jacket for its time (better IMO than contemporary ALC or Cirrus offerings) but let down as usual by its zips.

Any other early 'orphan' RAF offerings?

 

[aswatland]

H.J has made a very interesting point about repro Irvins. When does an Irvin become a reproduction rather than an original Irvin? Were wartime style Irvins still being made in the period 1946-50 and issued to bomber crew? Were these the ones made from low grade sheepskin with vinyl seam tapes and Clix zips? Some had leather waistbelts and others had vinyl ones. Or did all these date from around 1950 until the 1960s? What about a jacket called a Mark IV flying jacket with patch pockets was made by various firms including Douglas? I have assumed this to be a product of the 1950s amd 1960s.

 

[Spitfire]

Let me be the first to post a pic of a repro Irvin.
(It was posted in the now closed Irvinthread some time ago)
But here is the WPG Irvin. And I like it

 

[KilroyCD]

Let me be the first to post a pic of a repro Irvin.
(It was posted in the now closed Irvinthread some time ago)
But here is the WPG Irvin. And I like it

Soren, that Irvin looks like a nice jacket. I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of my WPG Irvin. Right now, it's being processed by Customs. I just hope that it doesn't take until April to clear Customs like that ALC Irvin I bought from you last winter!

 

[Spitfire]

Hope you get it real soon, Kilroy.
Let's hear what you think about it - and see some pics!!!

 

[H.Johnson]

Mmmm. Yes. An interesting point. I can remember my 1967 Sheepskin jacket quite well and it was definitely without vynil in any form and looked new (or at least unissued). It had hooks for the erection strap (I wondered for yeares whet they were for) but no strap. Frustratingly, I can't remember what the sleeve zips were, but Ithink the main zip was a nickel Lightning with a thumb-grip. This doesn't really give any indication as to whether it was a civilian or AM jacket. Personally, I don't think a manufacturer at the time would bother putting erection strap hooks on a 'civvy' jacket, but who knows? ELC does...

I was wondering whether to mention the Mark VI - its really outside the cope of this thread, but deserves attention as a style in its own right and was, as you say, adopted by a number of manufacturers. Let's face it, they were probably in production for at least as long as the 'Irvin' and it's derivatives!

H.J has made a very interesting point about repro Irvins. When does an Irvin become a reproduction rather than an original Irvin? Were wartime style Irvins still being made in the period 1946-50 and issued to bomber crew? Were these the ones made from low grade sheepskin with vinyl seam tapes and Clix zips? Some had leather waistbelts and others had vinyl ones. Or did all these date from around 1950 until the 1960s? What about a jacket called a Mark IV flying jacket with patch pockets was made by various firms including Douglas? I have assumed this to be a product of the 1950s amd 1960s.