ALL ORIGINAL Irvin RAF type Jackets - Loving that Wolf in sheeps' clothing!

[blacklagoon]

An old tried and tested way of destroying smells and mould on old jackets,especially musty smelling sheepskin,is to leave it outside,hanging over a chair,or lying spread out over the ground.Direct sunlight destroys mould and smells beautifully.two or three days is a good amount of time to leave it,if it is really mouldy and smelly.

It takes me 6 hours because i use very small circular finger movements.To my mind,if i apply a leather dressing well in the first place,the chances are,i don't have to apply a second coat,or have to worry about it as much for a lot longer period.which,works for me.

If i remember correctly,i recall reading that some people warm pecard leather dressing up,so it is slightly runnier and easier to apply.Perhaps whoever uses that method,could tell you how to do that.It sounds a lot easier than the cold,thick and slow application method i use.

 

[bobbyball]

My first original Irvin!

Hi everyone,

I was at a militaria fair yesterday and bought my first Irvin. I cannot post pics at the moment but here are the details:

Firstly, I am no Irvin expert. I collect A-2s but this seemed an absolute steal.

The linen spec label is present but very feint. I can make out the size (7) and it states a waist and height measurement (up to 38 waist and 6 foot??). The label is printed in what looks like an old typewriter font. Hanging tab is leather.

It is a two panel jacket, single panel fronts (one seam down back) so it is early.

Zip puller is missing from front but sleeve zips are stamped with Crown AM and FF Ltd. The pullers are a teardrop shape. The front puller box does not have a hole for the zipper pull – just a rebate so I will need to find a spare puller from somewhere.

Sheepskin is very compact and not wooly. The collar is slightly woolier but the main body is more comparable to the density of a D1 if this makes sense.

There is no under collar strap and there appears to be no evidence of there ever being one. The surface is very matt as any original coating has worn off. The belt looks hardly worn (still very stiff) and there is no wear to the sheepskin on the cuffs or waist. The tapes and underarm grommets retain their shine. All stitching is perfect and very tight with small stitches.

Overall condition is fantastic with no signs of wear (apart from the matt surface) The underarm grommets almost look new. In fact, I thought from a distance it was a repro it is that mint. There is no smell to the jacket and it may have been professionally cleaned – not sure.

I cannot identify the contractor as the label is so feint.

I would be interested if anyone out there has a period front zip puller or I may get Eastman to supply one.

 

[Windsock]

I was at a militaria fair yesterday and bought my first Irvin. I cannot post pics at the moment but here are the details:

Great, when you do can you post them in the Vintage irvin thread? It'll help a lot with comments.

The linen spec label is present but very feint. I can make out the size (7) and it states a waist and height measurement (up to 38 waist and 6 foot??). The label is printed in what looks like an old typewriter font. Hanging tab is leather.


Size 7 fits 6-6'2" so it's a good size not frequently seen- not exactly beneficial being a big bugger in an aircraft. Most Irvins had chain hangars, but I also have one with a leather one- don't know the make but it has other features of a Wareings jacket.

Zip puller is missing from front but sleeve zips are stamped with Crown AM and FF Ltd. The pullers are a teardrop shape. The front puller box does not have a hole for the zipper pull – just a rebate so I will need to find a spare puller from somewhere.

The FF stands for Flash Fasteners and are often seen on later War jackets. If we could see the main zip we could say what brand it is to help get a pulller for it. Failing that you might get a hold of a whole puller and slider- i'm sure Andrew has a couple. Eastman zips aren't appropriate for Originals and they wouldn't sell one separately anyway.

Sheepskin is very compact and not wooly. The collar is slightly woolier but the main body is more comparable to the density of a D1 if this makes sense.

There is no under collar strap and there appears to be no evidence of there ever being one. The surface is very matt as any original coating has worn off. The belt looks hardly worn (still very stiff) and there is no wear to the sheepskin on the cuffs or waist. The tapes and underarm grommets retain their shine. All stitching is perfect and very tight with small stitches.

Overall condition is fantastic with no signs of wear (apart from the matt surface) The underarm grommets almost look new. In fact, I thought from a distance it was a repro it is that mint. There is no smell to the jacket and it may have been professionally cleaned – not sure.

Tighter fleece generally indicates older jackets but perhaps you are correct that it may be an old Aero repro or similar- that may partially explain a bargain price and lack of any collar strap hooks? Some of those old repros have developed a lot of character.

I'm sure the shots will reveal more.

 

[bobbyball]

Thanks for your very helpful reply. I am certain it is not a repro as a colleague who is pretty clued-up on originals is convinced of its authenticity. Not a cast iron guarantee, I know, but I will try to meet up with Andrew (we have met a couple of times in the past and I know he has lots of bits and spares for jackets) and see what he thinks. I recall that the early Aero repros were not that accurate. I am amazed at the lack of wear on the belt.


Whilst I cannot be absolutely sure this is not a repro everything convinces me it is original – hopefully if I can get some pics up in the other thread as well we can solve this. I am going to try and take some pictures tonight on my mobile and see if I can post them up tomorrow – is there a quick guide to how to post images here on the forum?

The front zipper box has no markings at all. The vertical puller bar that protrudes from the front of the slider has no hole through it for a puller to go through – just a rebate where the puller would clip in and slide up and down a little. I know the front zippers are not always the same manufacturer as the sleeves.

The mystery will continue.....

 

[aswatland]

Well done! Without seeing pics of the jacket I would not like to have a stab at the maker. It sounds as if its an original. Flash Fastner zips were used from 1943 onwards. I know this because I have an original sample with a date label! They were used as replacements sometimes when cast DOT zips failed. Leather hangers are not uncommon-I have several originals with them. The typed label sounds spot on and a size 7 is large and rare. Although your jacket is of the early war 2 panel configuration I have seen ones made with a 1945 date of this design. Jackets made after 1943 generally did not have the eyelets for the elastic strap. It sounds as if you have bought a great jacket.

 

[ethanedwards]

Congratulations BB! Your first Irvin but probably not your last!

You say there is no evidence of a collar strap, but maybe the hooks are there for it? Other than ELC, I don't think repro makers attached these hooks to their jackets and ELC do not use AM nomenclature on their sizing.
If you have the hooks, and wanted a repro strap, you can buy one quite cheaply from Eastmans - decent original collar straps are not often seen (not by me on ebay anyway) and sell for insane amounts when they do appear.

I'd echo everyone else and say it'd be great to see some pics - I've never seen
a Size 7 before, I would imagine they must have been quite rare.

 

[bobbyball]

Well done! Without seeing pics of the jacket I would not like to have a stab at the maker. It sounds as if its an original. Flash Fastner zips were used from 1943 onwards. I know this because I have an original sample with a date label! They were used as replacements sometimes when cast DOT zips failed. Leather hangers are not uncommon-I have several originals with them. The typed label sounds spot on and a size 7 is large and rare. Although your jacket is of the early war 2 panel configuration I have seen ones made with a 1945 date of this design. Jackets made after 1943 generally did not have the eyelets for the elastic strap. It sounds as if you have bought a great jacket.

Thanks Andrew,

I know we still need to meet up with my A-2 to discuss that zip. I seem to be reasonably lucky with jackets apart from dodgy or missing zips!!

I tried in vain last night to take some pics on my mobile – useless!

I think Andrew we will have to meet up at aconvenient moment and perhaps you can take some pics? You always post great shots of your jackets.

Anyway, here are some more details:

Front zipper: The stopper box is plain apart from what could be the letter D on the reverse (although this might be a shape created by the manufacturing process). The zip itself is not a thick heavy zip and is different from the sleeve zips. The right hand side bottom where the zip attaches to the zipper tape is a pressed metal (brass?).

There are D rings under the collar and no evidence of any attachment for the under collar elastic strap.

The belt loops are not very wide and the belt itself is quite narrow. The buckle looks to be nickel and is pressed out – not heavy and solid but also not cheap looking either if this makes sense. The belt and collar strap look almost unused and remain very stiff – like a new belt.

I must admit the two-panel with the later sleeve zips has thrown me but from what the experts have said it is not impossible that the two-panel were made later than previously believed.

The size is outstanding. I am really a 44 chest with a little bit of a gut and it fits me with room for a thick jumper underneath. Although I have not had a great deal of interest in Irvins prior to this, I have never seen a size 7 before.

I have looked closely at the fleece and whilst overall it is a light creamy/buttery colour, there are orange tones in places. No thinnning of the fleece anywhere and really looks seldom worn.

If the seller is to be believed, this jacket was stored in a suit bag for over 25 years which has helped to preserve it.

Andrew, if it is convenient I will call you this evening and we can have a chat. If you do have any pullers that would fit this would be great – even if it is a temporary fix to enable me to do the jacket up easily.

 

[Spitfire]

worthlesswithoutpics

 

[aswatland]

Pictures would certainly be helpful, but I understand Bob was having some trouble getting them.

 

[bobbyball]

worthlesswithoutpics

Yes Spitfire, I apologise for this. I am going to meet up with Andrew next week and maybe he can take some pics – I cannot seem to do it properly.

 

[Spitfire]

Easy does it - we are all just curious to see you new, old Irvin.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

this above from blacklagoon is great advice, i'd forgotten about doing it this way. An added bonus is that leaving the jacket in an airy sunny outdoors environment will also kill any moths lurking in the sheepskin. It takes me ages to apply Pecard's too.

bk

p.s. I used Pecard's on a "jerkin, men's" and most of the dirt was removed along with the excess Pecard's.

 

[blacklagoon]

If you are really worried about anything lingering inside the sheepskin wool itself,like dead eggs,dead insects etc,that are stuck and hidden deep inside the mass of sheepskin wool,a very simple and quick method to get rid of them,is to get a vacuum cleaner.Use the extension pipe and fit one of the small brushes to the end of it,then gently run it over the sheepskin wool.Unfortunately,the brush itself does collect a lot of wool on it,so you may like to try experimanting with some of the hard plastic tools and not the brush tools.
What i do,aswell as give it a quick vacuum,is to put it over a chair outside,and beat it with a fly swat.all sorts of horrible dead things bounce out.but they bounce back into other parts of the sheepskin most of the time,so perhaps a good old fashioned gentle vacuuming is the best answer.

 

[blacklagoon]

Here are three pictures.One showing the three Dot Made In England Zippers on my size 2 coastal command irvin,and two pictures showing the yellow hood from the outside,and the yellow hood from the inside,full of sheepskin.
I got this jacket from a man a short distance from my house,who use to own and run a museum,that was jam packed with original irvin jackets in the seventies.unfortunately,he had to close the museum and sell a few of them off,for about £20.00 or so each.It seems proof to me,judging by the picture of the identical zippers on this untouched jacket,that irvin jackets when made in the factory/shop,were fitted with identical zippers on the arms and on the main body...in general.

 

[aswatland]

It seems proof to me,judging by the picture of the identical zippers on this untouched jacket,that irvin jackets when made in the factory/shop,were fitted with identical zippers on the arms and on the main body...in general.

Thanks for the close-up pics. From handling many original Irvins I would add this to your comment. Most pre-war and early war Irvins have matching zips, usually DOTs. There are exceptions of course. For example I have an original double trunnion cast slider on a 1938 IAC jacket as the main zip and single trunnion brass sleeve zips, all made by DOT and all original to the jacket. I have seen many jackets from 1940 onwards with their original DOT sleeve zips and a Lightning main zip-again factory installed hardware. From 1943 many jackets had a Lighting main zip and Flash Fastener sleeve zips. Ohterns had all Lightning zips or all DOT zips like your CC jacket. Of course there are jackets without matching zips where one or more has been replaced. Makers used whatever zips were available and there was no absolute uniformity or consistency in approach.

 

[blacklagoon]

Thank you very much for your invaluable information Andrew,we all deeply appreciate it.As a little added extra,Laurence Olivier was in the Fleet Air Arm at one time in his wartime military career.
I have a few more pictures of wartime irvin jackets to post,which i got from the following site:

http://www.acesofww2.com/Canada/Canada.htm

 

[blacklagoon]

More Canadian Pilots wearing irvin flying jackets.

 

[blacklagoon]

Canadian Pilots wearing irvin jackets

A lovely shot of an electrically heated irvin below

 

[Spitfire]

Impressive jacket and impressive collection of pictures.
Thank you for sharing:eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[blacklagoon]

More canadian pilots wearing irvin flying jackets