A Resurgence of Hats

[Marc Chevalier]

Man, where is Little Dom's? Up near USC? Near Miracle Mile? I rarely get to that side of The Basin but I'd make the trip just to eat there. I want to be seen in there with my Fed IV (when I get it) hanging on a hook!

It's in Los Feliz, near East Hollywood. The northeast corner of Hillhurst Ave. and Avocado St., one block south of Los Feliz Blvd.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Same for Tadich Grill in San Francisco - plenty of hat hooks.

http://maps.google.com/maps/place?u...ct=photo-link&cd=1&resnum=4&ved=0CEkQnwIoADAD

Thanks very much for the heads-up! I've got to go there.


Watch a new thread pop up. Call it: Restaurants/Cafes/Diners/Bars Where You Can Still Hang Up Your Hat.

 

[Oldsarge]

Thanx, Marc. Perhaps Little Dom's would make a good Event site come spring time. We could take and post a picture of the restaurant with most (or all!) of the hat hooks filled.

 

[Haversack]

Tadich also has hooks under the bar for ladies purses.

Le Central on Bush has a hat/coat rack at both the front and the back of the bar room.

The new Austrian place on Polk, Leopold's, has plenty of hat hooks on the walls and booth ends.

The door staff at Bix always offer to take your hat and coat.

 

[Pompidou]

The casinos in CT have dedicated and attended coat, and I presume, hat storage. I trust them with my coat, but I wear my hat because I don't trust anyone that much. I can buy another identical coat any time. My hat is one of a kind.

 

[Sam Craig]

It was in the '70s that the change came.
There was a time when, even if you did not have a hat and coat check at a restaurant, you at least had the hat and coat hooks near the cashier and he or she watched over them.
I remember in the '70s when you began to have computerization of restaurant registers and there was less human oversight. The signs began to go up, stating that the restaurant took no responsibility for loss.
There are restaruants, even in my small, rural community, where I still remove my hat ... at the table ... and either dedicate an extra chair, ask for an extra chair, or even place my hat UNDER my chair.
However, when I am out with others and they pick a cookie-cutter, chain restaurant ... I won't name names, but you have them all over the U.S. ... that shove people in so closely that you can't force in a space for a hat to be laid, I refuse to feel I have commited a faux pas for leaving my lid on.
In professional establishments, such as doctor's office, where you once ... again ... had a cashier who took the trouble to over see the safety of a patron's possessions, you are also on your own today.
I simply keep my hat and coat with me and even take it into the inner office, where I place them on a chair.
I defy a doctor ... or any other professional ... who will not keep an orderly waiting room to say anything about me bringing my possessions with me when he will not make sure they are safe.
After all, I guarantee he or she is making a lot more than I am.

Sam

 

[HeyMoe]

I had to go to a doctor's appointment with my wife last week and I was wearing my Knox. I left the hat on in the hallyways and lobby as it is my understanding that this is OK. As we got onto the elevator an elderly woman was wheeled on with a very young aide. I immediatly removed my hat (was in the process anyway) and stood quietly in the back of the elevator. When we reached the woman's floor, she turned to me and said "Thank you young man".

My wife looked at me like "Huh?"

The only time I have ever kept anything on my head while eating what my helmet in the Army. I hated every moment of it. In a resturant, if a chair is not available for me to put my fedora on, I will hold it on my knee. I recently had a horrible experiance at a local resturant. We had reservations but were seated an hour and ten minutes late. We then waited for half an hour for the waiter and the food wasn't all that great. Of course I had to keep my hat and PeaCoat with me, the coat on my chair and my lid on my knee. As we were leaving the hostess, whom was standing with the owner, asked how everything was. I told her it was subpar, but knowing it was a very busy holiday weekend I wouldn't hold that against them. I would, however, not return to the resturant as they had no place for me to check my hat or coat and I was forced to keep both of them with me, and we were not given the booth or four chair table we had requested (by the time we were seated, half of the resturant was empty) so I had nowhere to place my hat.

Both the hostess and owner were shocked and my wife was trying desperatly not to laugh.

P.S. I have been known to not play well with others.......

 

[monbla256]

It was in the '70s that the change came.
There was a time when, even if you did not have a hat and coat check at a restaurant, you at least had the hat and coat hooks near the cashier and he or she watched over them.
I remember in the '70s when you began to have computerization of restaurant registers and there was less human oversight. The signs began to go up, stating that the restaurant took no responsibility for loss.
There are restaruants, even in my small, rural community, where I still remove my hat ... at the table ... and either dedicate an extra chair, ask for an extra chair, or even place my hat UNDER my chair.
However, when I am out with others and they pick a cookie-cutter, chain restaurant ... I won't name names, but you have them all over the U.S. ... that shove people in so closely that you can't force in a space for a hat to be laid, I refuse to feel I have commited a faux pas for leaving my lid on.
In professional establishments, such as doctor's office, where you once ... again ... had a cashier who took the trouble to over see the safety of a patron's possessions, you are also on your own today.
I simply keep my hat and coat with me and even take it into the inner office, where I place them on a chair.
I defy a doctor ... or any other professional ... who will not keep an orderly waiting room to say anything about me bringing my possessions with me when he will not make sure they are safe.
After all, I guarantee he or she is making a lot more than I am.

Sam

I would have to agree with your time line for the change Sam. When growing up here in Ft. Worth in the 50s/60s folks would leave their hats on in a cafe at lunch but when you were having dinner there you'd see the men with their hats off and hung on whatever hooks available which were usually at or near the front door. And though I was brought up to remove my hat at the table as you were, I too leave mine on at most of the chain restaraunts for the same reason. As William Zimmerman said "...the times they are a-changin' "

 

[MisterGrey]

I have a self imposed rule about hats when it comes to dining. Small cafes, coffee shops, fast food joints, and the like, I won't feel bad about keeping my hat on. Anyplace else, space permitting, I'll take it off, though, even if it is just a casual dining place; I was raised with the "hats off indoors" rule and it wasn't until I saw photos of men in the GE wearing their hats in more casual environments that I even felt comfortable leaving them on there.
If a place looks crowded from outdoors, though, and it isn't raining, I'll just stash the lid in the car.

I also leave a hat on in the supermarket or in any store I go into, figuring that they're the natural descendants of outdoor marketplaces where a hat would have been acceptable anyway (I believe I came to that decision after asking about it several years ago here on the lounge). Though I'll still take it off when speaking to a woman.

 

[Undertow]

Pompidou, you raise an interesting point - we should be more flexible in how we approach etiquette.

Hats, however, are about as old as time and it was not uncommon to doff one's head covering; whether the knight lifted his visor to the maiden, or the soldier keeps his helmet on specifically because he is at arms (as opposed to removing his cover, as would be customary).

Removing one's head covering is a sign of respect. Certainly, times have changed and perhaps we should not necessarily hold ourselves to the same standards as our forefathers. Yet, why hold any routines? Why not change all aspects of life entirely at the whim of progress? Why do we bother to wave to one another and say hello? Why do we still nod our heads to say, "Yes," and shake our heads to say, "No"? Etc.

I understand your point - there were the old ways, and now there are the new ways. I believe it's a personal choice to hold principles, no matter how antiquated they may seem. In any case, I'll take a note from you - I should be a bit more open-minded before cursing someone under my breath for not taking off their hat.

 

[jlee562]

Pompidou, you raise an interesting point - we should be more flexible in how we approach etiquette.

Hats, however, are about as old as time and it was not uncommon to doff one's head covering; whether the knight lifted his visor to the maiden, or the soldier keeps his helmet on specifically because he is at arms (as opposed to removing his cover, as would be customary).

Removing one's head covering is a sign of respect. Certainly, times have changed and perhaps we should not necessarily hold ourselves to the same standards as our forefathers. Yet, why hold any routines? Why not change all aspects of life entirely at the whim of progress? Why do we bother to wave to one another and say hello? Why do we still nod our heads to say, "Yes," and shake our heads to say, "No"? Etc.

I understand your point - there were the old ways, and now there are the new ways. I believe it's a personal choice to hold principles, no matter how antiquated they may seem. In any case, I'll take a note from you - I should be a bit more open-minded before cursing someone under my breath for not taking off their hat.

The thing is, etiquette is norms based. Being a social scientist (or a budding one at least), I could go into some long winded diatribe about the life and death of social norms, but suffice it to say that these social rules evolve and change with the times. At such a point, when the majority no longer feels it is rude to say, keep one's hat on in an elevator if a woman comes on, then the norm is already broken. And if the norm is broken the societal context of rudeness is gone too which no longer means that the action of keeping one's hat on is disrespectful, because the target of such action will not perceive it to be rude or disrespectful. Point being, the reason I would argue most of "Golden Era" hat etiquette is antiquated and superfluous to 2011 society is because the population is by and large not aware of such rules and consequently are no longer offended when such rules are broken. Waving and saying hello, nodding and shaking, etc are still conceptions held by the population at large. Those norms have not evaporated as has hat etiquette.

Which is of course not to say that one should not break their own personal rules if they feel uncomfortable doing so. For myself, I almost always remove my hat in a restaurant, the exception would be if I simply did not feel comfortable placing my hat under my seat, or if I'm wearing a stingy brim and I'm out with friends of my own age (who know little if anything of hat etiquette as such).

 

[facade]

The thing is, etiquette is norms based. Being a social scientist (or a budding one at least), I could go into some long winded diatribe about the life and death of social norms, but suffice it to say that these social rules evolve and change with the times. At such a point, when the majority no longer feels it is rude to say, keep one's hat on in an elevator if a woman comes on, then the norm is already broken. And if the norm is broken the societal context of rudeness is gone too which no longer means that the action of keeping one's hat on is disrespectful, because the target of such action will not perceive it to be rude or disrespectful. Point being, the reason I would argue most of "Golden Era" hat etiquette is antiquated and superfluous to 2011 society is because the population is by and large not aware of such rules and consequently are no longer offended when such rules are broken. Waving and saying hello, nodding and shaking, etc are still conceptions held by the population at large. Those norms have not evaporated as has hat etiquette.

Which is of course not to say that one should not break their own personal rules if they feel uncomfortable doing so. For myself, I almost always remove my hat in a restaurant, the exception would be if I simply did not feel comfortable placing my hat under my seat, or if I'm wearing a stingy brim and I'm out with friends of my own age (who know little if anything of hat etiquette as such).

Yes Golden Era hat etiquette is largely irrelevent in today's society and yes the majority will not be offended if such etiquette is not followed. Though I must disagree with one conclusion in this argument. The conclusion is that if the majority knew they were offending people they would modify their behavior. This is false. The majority no longer care whether they are offensive or not. Being respectful is taught and reinforced through consequences. Since neither of those exist for the majority today, they make no effort to be respectful. A society whose citizens have no desire to be respectful can not maintin a social etiquette.

Etiquette has not been replaced by an updated version. It has been eradicted. If its not illegal or likely to get you fired, people pretty much do whatever they feel like with little thought given to others.

 

[Sam Craig]

At what it costs to eat out these days ... barring the dollar menu at McD's ... it probably should be up to us to insist that we have a safe place for hats and coats ... extra chairs, etc. and then we probably should be good about using them.

I will admit that I am still more "comfortable" when we go out after church to someplace nice if I can take my hat off.
Having said that, however, I have no problem with keeping it on in one of the chain restaurants .. you know, the ones that put all the old timey stuff all over the walls and then pack in patrons lide sardines ... when they don't provide sufficient room.

Maybe we ought to just excuse ourselves from such establishments and stick to those where we are appreciated ... hats and all.

Sam

 

[jlee562]

Yes Golden Era hat etiquette is largely irrelevent in today's society and yes the majority will not be offended if such etiquette is not followed. Though I must disagree with one conclusion in this argument. The conclusion is that if the majority knew they were offending people they would modify their behavior. This is false. The majority no longer care whether they are offensive or not. Being respectful is taught and reinforced through consequences. Since neither of those exist for the majority today, they make no effort to be respectful. A society whose citizens have no desire to be respectful can not maintin a social etiquette.

Etiquette has not been replaced by an updated version. It has been eradicted. If its not illegal or likely to get you fired, people pretty much do whatever they feel like with little thought given to others.

Re: the bolded part in question, that was actually not a conclusion of my argument.

Actions are merely actions, and have no meaning other than what we ascribe to them as social entities. I would therefore heartily disagree with you that etiquette has been "eradicated," and also that "the majority no longer care whether they are offensive or not." The question is offensive to whom?

 

[facade]

Re: the bolded part in question, that was actually not a conclusion of my argument.

Actions are merely actions, and have no meaning other than what we ascribe to them as social entities. I would therefore heartily disagree with you that etiquette has been "eradicated," and also that "the majority no longer care whether they are offensive or not." The question is offensive to whom?

Offensive to the general public. People generally maintain some form of manners around their friends and family because their are consequences for poor behavior in those situations. When around the general public people feel free to act in any manner they choose as there are generally no consequences for boorish behavior.

 

[Pompidou]

Offensive to the general public. People generally maintain some form of manners around their friends and family because their are consequences for poor behavior in those situations. When around the general public people feel free to act in any manner they choose as there are generally no consequences for boorish behavior.

Does the general public typically look offended when you see it? If the typical person typically offends the general public without consequence, you should be able to see it. I don't. People generally aren't offending others. People generally aren't offended by others - not the "majority" anyway. The majority can't both hold high standards of which they take offense because of, and act with low enough standards to offend everyone else - not simultaneously. Otherwise, we'd have a society where everyone looked like a gentleman and acted like a barbarian. No, I'd argue that etiquette hasn't died. It's just changed. People act as people generally expect people to act - that's etiquette. Even barbarians have etiquette. They just don't have your etiquette - it's an important distinction.

 

[jlee562]

What Pompidou said.

Because if offends you, does not mean that it offensive to the general population. As I said, actions are just actions. They only have the meaning we ascribe to them. For example, holding your index finger to your thumb with the rest of your fingers splayed out in the US is the symbol for "ok," but in Mexico (or Russia, or any number of other countries) it's the symbol for saying someone is an a$$****.

The action doesn't change, but the meaning does. And the meaning changes because of the social mores.

 

[facade]

Does the general public typically look offended when you see it? If the typical person typically offends the general public without consequence, you should be able to see it. I don't. People generally aren't offending others. People generally aren't offended by others - not the "majority" anyway. The majority can't both hold high standards of which they take offense because of, and act with low enough standards to offend everyone else - not simultaneously. Otherwise, we'd have a society where everyone looked like a gentleman and acted like a barbarian. No, I'd argue that etiquette hasn't died. It's just changed. People act as people generally expect people to act - that's etiquette. Even barbarians have etiquette. They just don't have your etiquette - it's an important distinction.

I see offended people constantly. By the 100's or even 1000's everyday. Today people don't "look" offended that often. Ladies rarely look down their nose and cluck their tongues. Its rare that being rude results in a punch in the nose. Since you can't do anything to a rude person that will modify their behavior and not result in your getting arrested, people instead deal with it another way. They turn off their senses so they can insulate themselves from the people arround them. Ears are constantly plugged with music, or they're on the cell phone/internet, or have their eyes closed/reading. Modern societies obsession with on the go entertainment exists because people are doing everything they can not to have to interact with the people around them.

 

[jlee562]

That's specious reasoning to say the least.

 

[Oldsarge]

I wouldn't call that being offended, just self-centered, something that one should find offensive. But we don't, we just get a good dose of Shaudenfreude when said iPadded moron runs into a pole and breaks his nose. You're not going to get that from wearing a hat indoors.