A Message From Aero Leather USA

[Phantomfixer]

Like most I have been reading this thread with interest. Not a lawyer nor do I have a jacket sale pending...IMO from what I have read, Mark never intended to commit fraud. His years of service/sales to Aero prove he did not intend (key word) to commit fraud. Whatever transpired over the last couple of months could be evidence of bad business, mental issues, economic issues globaly. His business failed, they do everyday, they file bankruptcy and move on, often times leaving a wake debt in their trail.

The collapse of Aero USA, while a shock and costly to some, does not make it a crime. His years of service to the flight jacket enthusiast group establishes his intent to provide a custom jacket at premium price, to those who could afford/desire the jacket.
For the record, I have never ordered a jacket from either/any Aero location. I do not know Mark. I did buy a used Indian goatskin A-2 from a surplus vendor at the Reading WWII weekend.
John

 

[hpalapdog]

In the UK we have a small claims court. For a small fixed fee someone out of pocket can apply on-line for a court order for things like nonfulfillment of contract.
Seems a much better route than going to criminal charges and expensive lawyers for small cases.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/ManagingDebt/Makingacourtclaimformoney/DG_195118

Is there something like this in the US ?

 

[Red Baron]

Did the people who heaped up praise for Aero USA get any discounts and preferential treatment from Mark?

I guess they did get preferential treatment if they got their jackets, unlike some people who did not.

But did they also get slightly better prices on their jackets? Were there any perks for writing so much about jackets they had gotten from Mark?

 

[feltfan]

In the UK we have a small claims court. For a small fixed fee someone out of pocket can apply on-line for a court order for things like nonfulfillment of contract.

Is there something like this in the US ?

Yes, but there is no enforcement. You can win, but if he decides not to pay, you don't have much recourse.
Also there's the blood from a stone thing.

BTW, if I have learned anything from this thread, it is that I should be very careful about what I say and do on The Fedora Lounge.
This place is just full of lawyers and cops! Someone shoulda told Mark Moye.

 

[oneterrifichog]

Did the people who heaped up praise for Aero USA get any discounts and preferential treatment from Mark?

I guess they did get preferential treatment if they got their jackets, unlike some people who did not.

But did they also get slightly better prices on their jackets? Were there any perks for writing so much about jackets they had gotten from Mark?

I never got any perks from Mark. I think I bought at least 5 jackets from him all at full price and no special turn time. Hell I even drove over there and bought lunch on 2 occasions. Mark was in all areas a stand up guy. I think it is awful what happened but then none of us know how we would act when our backs are up against the wall. That is no excuse though for Mark's actions.

Mark you need to take care of this period.

Wilbur

 

[DJH]

Also there's the blood from a stone thing.

Yep, I'd say that was the problem - if Mark had the money, we'd all have our fancy coats.

Anyway, I'm lucky that I only lost a deposit which I don't expect to get back. Not much new info in this thread for a while, so I think I'll just move on.

 

[rippsnorter]

One bad thing I've noticed about this forum from the time I first joined months ago, is that newcomers posts are often ignored, to the point even that posts asking direct questions of other members will be ignored. I'm guessing that's why no one has noticed my post regarding paypal and ebay.

However, I'll post more that I learned from paypal in the hopes that someone will join in and some action might be taken.

According to paypal, even if you have gotten your money back from your credit card company, and if it's beyond the 45 day limit (which most are) if enough people file a dispute (a class action dispute for lack of a better term) paypal will start an investigation and could freeze his paypal account and pay out his victims via whatever paypal balance he may have.

If nothing else, by reporting to Ebay and paypal en masse, his accounts will be frozen and shut down, and any bank accounts he has linked to them will be on record as being used in fraud with them.

It's possible this could also help in a criminal investigation.

As Ken at Aero scotland said, it also be helpful if people reported him to the Columbia police department, as well as the FBI internet fraud etc.

One or two people complaining they can overlook, if the 80+ people that are out money complain, it's more likely that something will be done.

 

[rippsnorter]

Like most I have been reading this thread with interest. Not a lawyer nor do I have a jacket sale pending...IMO from what I have read, Mark never intended to commit fraud. His years of service/sales to Aero prove he did not intend (key word) to commit fraud. Whatever transpired over the last couple of months could be evidence of bad business, mental issues, economic issues globaly. His business failed, they do everyday, they file bankruptcy and move on, often times leaving a wake debt in their trail.

The collapse of Aero USA, while a shock and costly to some, does not make it a crime. His years of service to the flight jacket enthusiast group establishes his intent to provide a custom jacket at premium price, to those who could afford/desire the jacket.
For the record, I have never ordered a jacket from either/any Aero location. I do not know Mark. I did buy a used Indian goatskin A-2 from a surplus vendor at the Reading WWII weekend.
John

Actually it does. If he took in orders for over a year and never passed on the money or orders to the factory, yes that's fraud.

Ponzi scams are a crime as well. Any time you take money fraudulently, that's not just "normal business" going under, that's criminal. Bernie Madoff was originally an honest broker. Just because his intent at one time was good does not mean he gets a free pass at billions of dollars stolen.

Otherwise a company could take orders on any product for 10+ years, just take the cash, pocket it, then go bankrupt and say "nothing criminal done!"

I have emails from Mark, in February of 2012, stating positively that he had ordered my jacket, was communicating with the factory and that my jacket "will be done soon". Aero Scotland informed me that my order was never placed with them. Does that sound honest?

There's a difference between a bit of money owed to suppliers when a company goes under, and a year to two years of customers money with no intention of actually providing the product paid for.

 

[ButteMT61]

One bad thing I've noticed about this forum from the time I first joined months ago, is that newcomers posts are often ignored, to the point even that posts asking direct questions of other members will be ignored. I'm guessing that's why no one has noticed my post regarding paypal and ebay...

That is the opposite of what I've experienced here. If nobody answers a post - yours or mine - it's probably due to no interest and/or not knowing anything useful to add.This place has always welcomed people with open arms.

 

[Jim Brown]

Just by going by what I keep reading in this thread why do so many people say say in effect "we don't know what we'd do with our backs against the wall or something like that..." if I was deep in debt or something along those lines, stealing money would never, ever cross my mind... EVER.

Why is theft okay if you're desperate?

 

[dr.velociraptor]

Big Bear Choppers did something nearly identical, they were taking deposits for at least a year without producing the bikes and just using the deposit money to pay their overhead. Some guys paid in full for two custom motorcycles and received nothing, others lost $17,000 or more deposits. They had an issue with cracking frames on their bikes and the recall crushed them. One day they turned the phone off and were gone, they opened up under a new name with a different owner. The losses in that case were in the millions and they weren't arrested or charged, I would imagine there is little to no chance Mr. Moye has any legal troubles other than bankruptcy.

As far as paypal goes Mark I'm sure removed all credit cards and banking information from his paypal account. So even if you win a paypal judgment there's no chance of them getting any money from him. I guess it could be a moral victory.

 

[ButteMT61]

Did the people who heaped up praise for Aero USA get any discounts and preferential treatment from Mark? I guess they did get preferential treatment if they got their jackets, unlike some people who did not. But did they also get slightly better prices on their jackets? Were there any perks for writing so much about jackets they had gotten from Mark?

So, for ten years, Mark "hooked up" most everyone to get rave reviews so he could hose people for the last six months? One year?All the good reviews were bought? Does that make any sense? He would have had to give god knows how many people "special treatment" so he could take the last people's money?
I got two scarves from Mark with my son's B-3.
I get free coffee from my local Starbucks after years of visiting.I also have got deals from almost every other business I frequent a lot from jackets to coffee to computer gear to motorcycles.
Do they treat me better? Probably. Would I write positive reviews of their businesses? You bet. As I've done for Mark and Aero and others.

 

[ButteMT61]

Big Bear Choppers did something nearly identical, they were taking deposits for at least a year without producing the bikes and just using the deposit money to pay their overhead. Some guys paid in full for two custom motorcycles and received nothing, others lost $17,000 or more deposits...

I think the same thing happened with one or more of the Indian Motocycle reincarnations before they finally went under and were bought again.

 

[pattonfan]

This whole deal reminds me of why I am a happily confirmed misanthrope. Ripsnorter, I tried to go through eBay and PayPal. Developing a process for backyard nuclear fission would be easier. I couldn't do it through my account online, as too much time had elapsed and their system wouldn't recognize the item number anymore. I decided to call the support number and talked to someone who could barely speak my language. She towed the company line and just referred me to the FBI's Internet Crimes Division.

I've lurked here since I started this hobby, always appreciating the knowledge and civility present. I never felt the need to join or post until this deal, and that was just to join my voice to the frustrated outcry. Yes, I've been reading all posts with interest, but everyone has just turned their frustrations on each other.

The way I see it, there are two villains here, maybe not criminals, but either unethical or untethered to humanity: Mr. Moye and eBay's garbage Buyer Protection Policy that only serves to protect eBay and PayPal. My life will be better off when both are out of my life. Overwrought analysis? Yeah, probably. Whatever.

 

[ButteMT61]

The way I see it, there are two villains here, maybe not criminals, but either unethical or untethered to humanity: Mr. Moye and eBay's garbage Buyer Protection Policy that only serves to protect eBay and PayPal. My life will be better off when both are out of my life. Overwrought analysis? Yeah, probably. Whatever.

I I bought a purse for my wife ~year back. I never got it and I placed an ebay/paypal dispute. They had the ****s to deny it! I had to open a dispute and call them on the phone, escalate, b*tch and yell before I got them to give me a refund. When I got the initial "denial" email, I almost crashed my car. Yeah, it was an expensive purse. I finally did get the money after much grief. Fast forward to now. I sold a jacket here in Feb. It got lost. I used USPS with insurance. The timeframe passed and I filed a claim. CLAIM DENIED! I'm ready to go down and lose my mind. THEY lost the jacket, and THEY won't honor the insurance? Needless to say, I'm pretty p*ssed. So, while I didn't get hosed on an Aero purchase, the USPS lost my Aero HWM. And if they don't honor the insurance, I'm out that money. What a club...

 

[hpalapdog]

This whole deal reminds me of why I am a happily confirmed misanthrope. Ripsnorter, I tried to go through eBay and PayPal. Developing a process for backyard nuclear fission would be easier. I couldn't do it through my account online, as too much time had elapsed and their system wouldn't recognize the item number anymore. I decided to call the support number and talked to someone who could barely speak my language. She towed the company line and just referred me to the FBI's Internet Crimes Division.

I've lurked here since I started this hobby, always appreciating the knowledge and civility present. I never felt the need to join or post until this deal, and that was just to join my voice to the frustrated outcry. Yes, I've been reading all posts with interest, but everyone has just turned their frustrations on each other.

The way I see it, there are two villains here, maybe not criminals, but either unethical or untethered to humanity: Mr. Moye and eBay's garbage Buyer Protection Policy that only serves to protect eBay and PayPal. My life will be better off when both are out of my life. Overwrought analysis? Yeah, probably. Whatever.

If you paid by Paypal funded by credit card fill in a credit card charge back form. As I've said previously, this is not time limited. I've successfully done this six months after a dud Ebay purchase. The loser is Paypal as the charge is against them (assuming the miscreant has an empty Paypal account.)

It's pointless talking to Ebay or Paypal if their guarantee period is expired.

 

[Phantomfixer]

Actually it does. If he took in orders for over a year and never passed on the money or orders to the factory, yes that's fraud.

The key is "intent". I do not think Mark started out ten years ago with the intent of ripping people off. He had business issues, tried to cover his losses with the cash coming in....it snowballed. I am not a business man, just a humble retired crew chief, but to me it sounds like bad business, not criminal...if he was incorporated you can't touch him or his money/personal belongings.
JZ

 

[767fo]

I I bought a purse for my wife ~year back. I never got it and I placed an ebay/paypal dispute. They had the ****s to deny it! I had to open a dispute and call them on the phone, escalate, b*tch and yell before I got them to give me a refund. When I got the initial "denial" email, I almost crashed my car. Yeah, it was an expensive purse. I finally did get the money after much grief. Fast forward to now. I sold a jacket here in Feb. It got lost. I used USPS with insurance. The timeframe passed and I filed a claim. CLAIM DENIED! I'm ready to go down and lose my mind. THEY lost the jacket, and THEY won't honor the insurance? Needless to say, I'm pretty p*ssed. So, while I didn't get hosed on an Aero purchase, the USPS lost my Aero HWM. And if they don't honor the insurance, I'm out that money. What a club...

Scott, why did they denie your claim?

 

[Phantomfixer]

I I bought a purse for my wife ~year back. I never got it and I placed an ebay/paypal dispute. They had the ****s to deny it! I had to open a dispute and call them on the phone, escalate, b*tch and yell before I got them to give me a refund. When I got the initial "denial" email, I almost crashed my car. Yeah, it was an expensive purse. I finally did get the money after much grief. Fast forward to now. I sold a jacket here in Feb. It got lost. I used USPS with insurance. The timeframe passed and I filed a claim. CLAIM DENIED! I'm ready to go down and lose my mind. THEY lost the jacket, and THEY won't honor the insurance? Needless to say, I'm pretty p*ssed. So, while I didn't get hosed on an Aero purchase, the USPS lost my Aero HWM. And if they don't honor the insurance, I'm out that money. What a club...

I hear ya.. the USPS lost my wife's passport application, you know nothing real valuable, just birth certificate, SSN number, marriage license. Their response "nothing we can do, it is probably sitting under a box somewhere..."

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Actually it does. If he took in orders for over a year and never passed on the money or orders to the factory, yes that's fraud.

The key is "intent". I do not think Mark started out ten years ago with the intent of ripping people off. He had business issues, tried to cover his losses with the cash coming in....it snowballed. I am not a business man, just a humble retired crew chief, but to me it sounds like bad business, not criminal...if he was incorporated you can't touch him or his money/personal belongings.
JZ

...what losses?