A barf worthy rip off of an appropriated pattern

[Blackadder]

I'm glad there is no copyright on leather jackets. My 5* are all copies, albeit sometimes modified. Nowadays almost everything is a copy of something. Personally, I don't think it's bad to make something good even better. At LL you only get the offered leathers, at another supplier maybe one that suits you more. Or some details might be different.
Personally, I think it's good the way it is.

Not just nowadays. LL had lots of competitors back in 70s all selling the same Lancer, Highwayman etc jackets. There were Mascot, TT, Waddington etc etc. Even Highwayman itself was a competitor until it was purchased by LL.
All CHPs are copies of each other, the Perfecto has been copied since 40s. Grais, Rich Sher, Wolf all have the same Perfecto style with its own twist. Levi's and Lee have done that to each other since at least the 30s.
And on poorly executed copy of an original, the Golden Bear CHP comes into mind. How on earth can they expect everything on a duty belt to fit in between all those belt loops?

 

[Edward]

Not just nowadays. LL had lots of competitors back in 70s all selling the same Lancer, Highwayman etc jackets. There were Mascot, TT, Waddington etc etc. Even Highwayman itself was a competitor until it was purchased by LL.
All CHPs are copies of each other, the Perfecto has been copied since 40s. Grais, Rich Sher, Wolf all have the same Perfecto style with its own twist. Levi's and Lee have done that to each other since at least the 30s.
And on poorly executed copy of an original, the Golden Bear CHP comes into mind. How on earth can they expect everything on a duty belt to fit in between all those belt loops?

HIghwayman is an interesting one. I've never been able to track exactly who made it; all I know is that the Highwayman jackets were made for Rivett's Of Leytonstone, an East-London based motorcycle clothing specialist which closed some years ago. The Highwayman brand was used on a range of jackets they sold as a house brand; they sold it to Lewis in 1983, but the mark was up for grabs (and Aero's ownership subsequently confirmed by law) because TM ownership requires a mark to remain in use to be protectable. Highwayman made a lot of Lewisalikes, just as Lewis' Dominator / Corsair models were very much identical to a Highwayman model that had been around since c.1958. (A 1959 iteration was the inspiration for Aero's jacket, albeit that what we now know as the standard Highwayman was deliberately altered in pattern to give it a more American look at the time. The Original 59er version of the Aero Highwayman is a faithful recreation of the original jacket made for Rivett's.

Lewis are indeed the more or less last survivor of a much bigger British industry that died off not long behind the more or less death of the British motorcycle industry. It's one of those quirks of any revivalist scene that Lewis is such a dominant feature of the Rocker scene around the Ace Cafe, when in reality there would back in the day have been a wide range of jackets being worn by Ace regulars - including, for some less well able to afford leather, early faux leather jackets. Lewis at one point in the Sixties produced a budget, vinyl jacket known as "The Bomber". I don't imagine we'll see a fully accurate repop of that one any time soon!

Mascot and GoldTop, two one time direct competitors of Lewis, have also been revived in recent years. Mascot in 2015, though they seem to have folded in the last couple of years. Goldtop appeared four or five years ago and seem to be doing well, in part because they have cleverly surfed the wave of retro styling in bikeworld by providing very classic looks in their gear while also having it CE certified and adding pockets for d30 armouring and such. GoldTop now have a physical store in outer London, which I intend to visit at some point.

Whereas Mascot and Goldtop are older brands that have been revived by - as far as I can make out - persons unconnected to the original owners, Derek did indeed buy Lewis as a going concern. It is true that he had to buy back a lot of old jackets and recreate many patterns no longer held by the company, and he did radically reposition them from "contemporary" to a more "reproduction" focus, but it is the same Aviakit/Lewis Leathers company as always was, insofar as any company as a legal person in continuous operation for many decades will still be the same company. It does make Lewis an interesting animal when looked at in direct competition with other companies which are reproducing vintage designs. I do like seeing Lewis producing stuff based on their own history, though; it would be such a shame if they were doing badly modernised versions of their own designs while others made a perfect Lightning that they couldn't call a Lightning...

 

[Harris HTM]

Has this community really abandoned all sense of respect and decorum?

No, but members with strong opinions tend to lead the discussion.

Yet another “I do not like FCL’s designs/dimensions and, therefore, FCL jackets are crap” thread. Gotta have at least three such threads a year.

Not only FCL, there have been many threads where people bash the patterns of other brands. There have been strong opinions as I mentioned above lately, the jackets of brand A "fit like a sack of potato's and they are not meant for human bodies", the quality of brand B of shoes is horrendous, the patterns of brand C is rubbish (though the verdict was based on a military jacket whose patterns were not developed by brand C but probably by a tailor outsourced 100 years ago by the US Ministry of Defence).

I suspect that many of the critics have never handled a TFL jacket

I totally agree. Fact: members who verbally criticise the qc of specific shoe brands, when explicitly asked about how many models they owned and what the issue was, they admitted that they have never owned any, but "a friend or a cousin" did.

Another consideration: when you thoroughly eviscerate a particular brand as unmitigated crap and a complete fraud, what does that say about owners of the brand?

I feel you. I also felt offended when it was implied that my body is a sub-human one because I like brand A. Try to ignore these strong opinions. I also deliberately logged off for a period of many weeks but the overall experience of this forum luckily overshadows elitism.

 

[Blackadder]

HIghwayman is an interesting one. I've never been able to track exactly who made it; all I know is that the Highwayman jackets were made for Rivett's Of Leytonstone, an East-London based motorcycle clothing specialist which closed some years ago. The Highwayman brand was used on a range of jackets they sold as a house brand; they sold it to Lewis in 1983, but the mark was up for grabs (and Aero's ownership subsequently confirmed by law) because TM ownership requires a mark to remain in use to be protectable. Highwayman made a lot of Lewisalikes, just as Lewis' Dominator / Corsair models were very much identical to a Highwayman model that had been around since c.1958. (A 1959 iteration was the inspiration for Aero's jacket, albeit that what we now know as the standard Highwayman was deliberately altered in pattern to give it a more American look at the time. The Original 59er version of the Aero Highwayman is a faithful recreation of the original jacket made for Rivett's.

Lewis are indeed the more or less last survivor of a much bigger British industry that died off not long behind the more or less death of the British motorcycle industry. It's one of those quirks of any revivalist scene that Lewis is such a dominant feature of the Rocker scene around the Ace Cafe, when in reality there would back in the day have been a wide range of jackets being worn by Ace regulars - including, for some less well able to afford leather, early faux leather jackets. Lewis at one point in the Sixties produced a budget, vinyl jacket known as "The Bomber". I don't imagine we'll see a fully accurate repop of that one any time soon!

Mascot and GoldTop, two one time direct competitors of Lewis, have also been revived in recent years. Mascot in 2015, though they seem to have folded in the last couple of years. Goldtop appeared four or five years ago and seem to be doing well, in part because they have cleverly surfed the wave of retro styling in bikeworld by providing very classic looks in their gear while also having it CE certified and adding pockets for d30 armouring and such. GoldTop now have a physical store in outer London, which I intend to visit at some point.

Whereas Mascot and Goldtop are older brands that have been revived by - as far as I can make out - persons unconnected to the original owners, Derek did indeed buy Lewis as a going concern. It is true that he had to buy back a lot of old jackets and recreate many patterns no longer held by the company, and he did radically reposition them from "contemporary" to a more "reproduction" focus, but it is the same Aviakit/Lewis Leathers company as always was, insofar as any company as a legal person in continuous operation for many decades will still be the same company. It does make Lewis an interesting animal when looked at in direct competition with other companies which are reproducing vintage designs. I do like seeing Lewis producing stuff based on their own history, though; it would be such a shame if they were doing badly modernised versions of their own designs while others made a perfect Lightning that they couldn't call a Lightning...

There is an advantage of buying a company as a going concern in stead of just reviving a name. TM not only has to be in use, it has to be well known in the country one try to assert priority. Whereas LL can rely on the whole history, Mascot and Goldtop has to start afresh and if someone else registered those TM in their country, they may lose their right or priority.
The Japanese have revived a lot of brands over the years. They have tried to purchase or obtain licence on brands like Rocky Mountain Featherbed, Brown's Beach etc. Problem is those companies' use of their TM have been broken. 35 Summer of Japan has been reproducing Rocky Mountain since 2005 but there seems to be a Swedish company who registered the Rocky Mountain trademark in Sweden and started reproducing recently.

 

[Superfluous]

What made you choose this one over the Corsair, if I may ask?

Fair question. First, I prefer the FCL Tyler dimensions over the LL OTR dimensions and lately I have been disinterested in custom jackets (laziness). Second, I prefer the FCL Shinki HH over the LL hide. That said, I do like certain of the LL hides -- more so than the heavy Horween hides.

 

[Aloysius]

FWIW I'm not inherently anti FCL. Yeah, TFL is generally not all that down with the brand, but everywhere else it's FCL or bust most of the time. And I have great respect for you @Superfluous. I remember the shameful way they treated you on the IHUK forum, for being honest.

I do think their take on the 70s Perfecto was a massive missed opportunity. For all the fame and mystique around the jacket, there actually aren't all that many repros around today. Schott makes one for the Japanese market, with all the right details and trims, but with an extremely Japanese cut (I think the 40 measures up similarly to a 34 or so, and the jacket is too short) and lack of V shape. The FCL could have filled that opening, but ended up being extremely long (which actually might have worked if it didn't have the super retro details).

My broader issue is what I mentioned about people who don't understand much about fit or sizing doggedly shoving themselves into expensive Japanese jackets that don't fit, and influencing others to do the same. This isn't FCL specific.

I'm not saying the clothes internet was perfect 15 years ago when the focus was (I hate this term) 'classic menswear', but while we did discuss fabrics, mills, leathers, and techniques– fit came first.

 

[JMax]

FWIW I'm not inherently anti FCL. Yeah, TFL is generally not all that down with the brand, but everywhere else it's FCL or bust most of the time. And I have great respect for you @Superfluous. I remember the shameful way they treated you on the IHUK forum, for being honest.

I do think their take on the 70s Perfecto was a massive missed opportunity. For all the fame and mystique around the jacket, there actually aren't all that many repros around today. Schott makes one for the Japanese market, with all the right details and trims, but with an extremely Japanese cut (I think the 40 measures up similarly to a 34 or so, and the jacket is too short) and lack of V shape. The FCL could have filled that opening, but ended up being extremely long (which actually might have worked if it didn't have the super retro details).

My broader issue is what I mentioned about people who don't understand much about fit or sizing doggedly shoving themselves into expensive Japanese jackets that don't fit, and influencing others to do the same. This isn't FCL specific.

I'm not saying the clothes internet was perfect 15 years ago when the focus was (I hate this term) 'classic menswear', but while we did discuss fabrics, mills, leathers, and techniques– fit came first.

I’m with you. I do think that TFL is less about fit than some of the other “menswear” forums. There is a healthy contingent here who are about the jackets and will go with less than perfect fit if the jacket is special to them. Or no fit at all for some.

 

[Blackadder]

FWIW I'm not inherently anti FCL. Yeah, TFL is generally not all that down with the brand, but everywhere else it's FCL or bust most of the time. And I have great respect for you @Superfluous. I remember the shameful way they treated you on the IHUK forum, for being honest.

I do think their take on the 70s Perfecto was a massive missed opportunity. For all the fame and mystique around the jacket, there actually aren't all that many repros around today. Schott makes one for the Japanese market, with all the right details and trims, but with an extremely Japanese cut (I think the 40 measures up similarly to a 34 or so, and the jacket is too short) and lack of V shape. The FCL could have filled that opening, but ended up being extremely long (which actually might have worked if it didn't have the super retro details).

My broader issue is what I mentioned about people who don't understand much about fit or sizing doggedly shoving themselves into expensive Japanese jackets that don't fit, and influencing others to do the same. This isn't FCL specific.

I'm not saying the clothes internet was perfect 15 years ago when the focus was (I hate this term) 'classic menswear', but while we did discuss fabrics, mills, leathers, and techniques– fit came first.

I think you mean the 613US but lets not forget the 613UST which is a lengthened version (not a big and tall version, simply lengthened for a different crowd).

 

[Aloysius]

I think you mean the 613US but lets not forget the 613UST which is a lengthened version (not a big and tall version, simply lengthened for a different crowd).

The 613UST/UHT is less than an inch longer than the 613US, and for some reason they make it narrower in the shoulders.

But the main issue is that it is insanely narrow. The size 42 has a 41" chest, which is more like a size 36 Perfecto would have. That is the gap that the Leon might have filled if it weren't so long.

However, the Schott 613S/SH in the US market is pretty much a perfect 70s Perfecto; the only differences are zipper direction, which is hard to notice anyway, and the non-miter buckle. (The included buckle is one of the most high quality I've encountered on a jacket, though I still plan to switch it out for a miter buckle at some point.)

 

[Blackadder]

According to measurements on Rakuten, the Schott 613UST is actually longer than the FCL Leon for sizes under 42. I have tried the 613UUST and handled a few FCL at Jelado Ebisu but have never tried the FCL on though. Not really that interested given the price.

 

[Aloysius]

According to measurements on Rakuten, the Schott 613UST is actually longer than the FCL Leon for sizes under 42. I have tried the 613UUST and handled a few FCL at Jelado Ebisu but have never tried the FCL on though. Not really that interested given the price.

I probably named the wrong jacket model. Wouldn't have been the Leon, then, but some other Perfecto style FCL that was owned by someone from Styleforum.

 

[Blackadder]

Many here have shown interest when they were with High Large. I remember looking for the High Large office at Ueno only to find that they have no showroom there.

 

[Aloysius]

I’m with you. I do think that TFL is less about fit than some of the other “menswear” forums. There is a healthy contingent here who are about the jackets and will go with less than perfect fit if the jacket is special to them. Or no fit at all for some.

I think there's something of a division here (not in oppositional sense, really, just in that there two groups).

Call it the 'Shinki side' and the 'fit side'.

Both groups are interested in all aspects of a jacket, but each prioritizes one. The 'Shinki' side puts the right leather and construction first, with fit a lesser concern. The 'fit' side is the other way around, putting pattern and fit first.

The latter group seems to enjoy a wider variety– you'll see a $500 jacket next to a $3000 jacket.

Just my observations but I've seen pretty much this over the past few years.

 

[Will Zach]

^^
You are missing the "vintage group", which prioritizes the historical aspects of the jackets.

 

[Aloysius]

^^
You are missing the "vintage group", which prioritizes the historical aspects of the jackets.

Good point! They were around more when I first started coming on here, with many somewhat shifted over to VLJ I think. I’m probably in that group myself, though I don’t talk about those aspects as much as I used to.

There are few enough left though that I think they largely overlap with the ‘fit’ group. (Take someone like ton, who is vintage first but is into just about every modern make at every price point, so long as the pattern works.)

 

[JMax]

Ton is one of the exceptions. A hybrid of sorts. I’d say the vintage bubbas are in it for the history. To feel and see the different makers. A decent fit is good enough. Heck, I’m happy if I can get it on most of the time. And for some, its still worth a purchase even if the jacket doesn’t fit.

 

[Rich22]

Aren't most jackets by most makers "rip-offs" or "faithful tributes" at this point? Everyone copies and tweaks. Jacket looks fine. Most items of clothing in general are partial facsimiles of something else. Look what happens when someone like Himmel makes something truly unique- we end up with that pullover top that looks like it was designed for Hannibal Lecter, and is one of the ugliest items of clothing I've ever seen.

While I will defend the look of the jacket, the measurements, on the other hand, are comical. I guess if we've had vanity sizing where we make people feel much smaller than they really are then it makes sense we now get items of clothing that make smaller men feel bigger. I couldn't even put on the biggest size they sell in this jacket, and if I did it would be all over the place. For what it is worth, the shoulder measurements make sense in relation to other measurements. Additionally to that, the shoulder measurement across the top seam can be misleading, depending on the cut of the jacket. With a good pattern that number can be lower than you think- oversized shoulders at the very top, in relation to chest measurement and a wonky pattern, are very common...

 

[Marc mndt]

What's key for me is quality, either in terms of leather or in terms of construction. Preferably both. I enjoy a vintage €50 no label jacket as much as I enjoy a €2k FW. For some reason I don't have much trouble finding that 'perfect fit', whatever that may be. Here's three jackets which I think are a perfect fit, even though they're three different sizes:

 

[Superfluous]

I have tried on many FCL jackets and most fit me horribly. The shoulder/chest/length ratios usually do not work for me. The Tyler was the rare exception. Its a shame because I like several of their other designs (including the new Jack), but the dimensions/fit don't work. Thus, I understand those who disfavor the length and/or other dimensions of certain FCL models. I feel the same way. My point is simply that there are respectful ways of communicating varying and/or unfavorable opinions. After all, that is what we are talking about -- subjective opinions. What irks me the most is when someone suggests that their subjective opinion is an objective, irrefutable truism.

One should never sacrifice fit for leather. I would much rather have a great fitting jacket made out of mediocre leather as opposed to a mediocre/poor fitting jacket made out of great leather. The trick is to find both a stellar fit and high quality leather/construction. FW employs great leather and craftsmanship, but the Mulholland is the only leather FW jacket that fits me (several of their non-leather jackets fit me). Thus, notwithstanding the superb leather and craftsmanship, I only own the Mulholland . . . because I will not sacrifice fit for leather or craftsmanship. I would love to own a FW Caboose, Sunset, Rebels, Four Corners, and Speed Maser, but none fit me. The same holds true for TFH and RC leather jackets -- notwithstanding the great leather and construction, they do not fit me.

I am not aware of anyone here that genuinely exalts Shinki HH at the expense of fit. There are several that exalt Shinki HH, but my recollection is that they also demand a good fit.

 

[Marc mndt]

I am not aware of anyone here that genuinely exalts Shinki HH at the expense of fit. There are several that exalt Shinki HH, but my recollection is that they also demand a good fit.

Off topic: Do we still exalt Shinki at all? Yes they produce nice hh leathers. So do Italian tanneries. By now we know Shinki is just a buzzword right?