A-2, part two. Time to go shopping.

[Banzai]

For those of you who checked out my efforts to make my undersized A-2 work better, I've decided that you guys are right: reverse engineering a jacket in the effort to get it there doesn't really fix it. So as soon as I've let e-bay sort it out, it's back to the drawing board.

Shaul said that an exchange at this point is impossible; understandable, given the timeline, etc. He did however, offer to waive the customization charge for me to order again, given the circumstances, and that because of my height I simply can't order a stock jacket from him, though I would love to.

My other jacket was (is) horsehide, seal brown. But I've been thinking about this. Bear with me.

Sure, it's tough, and feels substantial. But the fact is that the only reason the Army selected horsehide is because IT WAS CHEAPER. The Army NEVER chooses something because it's better. That, my friends, has been the bailiwick of the Navy, which went with goatskin from the beginning on the G-1. Why? It's ultimately tougher, though not heavier. At the time it was more expensive than horse by a pretty good margin.

So, I've been thinking that maybe all those guys in the Air Corps would have loved to have had goatskin jackets if they could have. Ergo, maybe I should too.

There are two reasons I went with horse the first time. 1) It was the "original" material (though I know that when horse started getting scarce, the Army sucked it up and sprung for the more expensive goatskin), and 2) because my only experience with goatskin was the flimsy stuff on the Cockpit jacket that was issued to me, which really feels very cheap. I've never actually touched a good goatskin jacket, believe it or not.

So. Thoughts?

 

[Fanch]

My favorite A-2 is a russet jerky MWHH Aero Bronco. If I were starting from scratch, I would go with an Aero A-2 made from russet Vinenza HH. That said, Aero's veg tanned goatskin is also fantastic, at least based on my black goatskin Maxwell and brown goatskin Pioneer.

 

[Banzai]

Or maybe I should go with an A-1 this time, to be a bit more original...

 

[ButteMT61]

Good goat is as sexy as horse. But for me, it's not one or the other or the other (cow, steer). They all have things I love and all are unique.
I like horse for the way it breaks in - the wrinkles seem to set more quickly and more pronounced.
Goat is easier day-one, but lighter HH can be too.
Cow/Steer is sorta between the two. Tough, wears nice, but easier to break in than horse quite often.

For me, I'd never give up one for the other. But I would certainly try different hides as you may in fact like one over another. There is some amazing goat right now - I've only got samples from Good Wear, but certainly Aero, LW, and others have some as well.

There are contracts that were done in this or that leather. If you care, check to see that you're not doing it wrong. Some contracts were horse, some goat, some cow. Some a combination. Good Wear has a nice page of info on what was what, but there's guys out there too that know as well as any book.

If you don't care about the "correct" bit, then have at it - Sloan can hook you up with a Blue A-2 that would likely be awesome :lol:

 

[ButteMT61]

Or maybe I should go with an A-1 this time, to be a bit more original...

Well...I would never argue that, and the choices are less, and therefore easier. See the recent posts on A-1s. I'm back to thinking about one myself. They are indeed more unique, and if done right, really sexy jackets.

 

[Banzai]

I'm not after a stitch-by-stitch repro. Just a superior product to what I was issued, and one that doesn't have velcro stitched to it.

I like the US Authentic jackets. And G&B. I don't have a strong interest in playing WW2 re-enactor. I'm a Viper driver, not a P-51 driver. (Though what I would give for a flight in one of those... )

In other words, I feel like I have enough ramp-cred to not feel compelled to do WW2 cosplay. No offense to those who are collectors, and really in to the repros. I just want a good jacket that fits well.

I like the very classic look of the A-1, but in my head I imagine those buttons being a royal PITA every time I transition between indoors and out.

I bet the button up knit collar is decently warm, probably warmer than an A-2 when the temperatures dip.

 

[Banzai]

So. Baa-aa-aa or Neigh. Choices, choices.

I wish I had ever actually felt nice goatskin. My issue jacket always just felt so thin and a little bit...synthetic.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I have had the good fortune to handle both great horsehide and great goatskin (and great cow/steer if we count some of my boots) and all three have great characteristics to offer. As much as I used to want horsehide for shoes, I actually think cow/calf is better due to it being a little more supple, yet still tough. This would definitely make it a great in between choice for leather jackets and I have seen cow hides that produce incredible patina, especially veg-tanned ones.

The veg tanned goatskin I handled was truly gorgeous. The grain of goatskin is very unique, and you either like it or you don't, so definitely keep that in mind! I personally do not like the way it looks and prefer the way horse and cow age/wrinkle and the fact that they start off smoother.

My favorite is horsehide for jackets. However, I must be honest and say that Shinki horsehide is my favorite for jackets. It is tough, yet still easy enough to break in. It starts off fairly smooth, but the patina and creases that form are unparalleled in my opinion. I would love to handle some Vicenza or some other Italian hides, but I haven't seen many that really excite me yet.

I will say, however, that the veg tanned goatskin I had from Iron Heart for a few days was epic. If you get the best goat, it is definitely on par with the best horse and cow. The important aspect is how much you personally like it. I don't like the grain as much myself, but the strength to weight ratio on it is pretty amazing.

 

[handymike]

I just tried on a Real McCoys black Shinki horsehide jacket that blew me away. It was softer and thicker than my Goodwear Shinki which is a bit stiffer like most Horse I've experienced.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I just tried on a Real McCoys black Shinki horsehide jacket that blew me away. It was softer and thicker than my Goodwear Shinki which is a bit stiffer like most Horse I've experienced.

Yeah my Real McCoy's horsehide on the A2 I have is different than the stuff I got from Diamond Dave. Very interesting. Also, the shinki I've tried on from Flat Head is also different from either of those. There are quite a few different shinki hides out there, all of which are incredible.

 

[Sloan1874]

Well...I would never argue that, and the choices are less, and therefore easier. See the recent posts on A-1s. I'm back to thinking about one myself. They are indeed more unique, and if done right, really sexy jackets.

I know what you mean. I do like the Headwinds jacket, it captures the elegant simplicity of the design.

 

[handymike]

Agreed!

 

[Banzai]

I still think it's a good point that the Army used horse because it was cheaper, while the Navy went with the more expensive goat because it was better.

And now we fork over a premium to copy how the Army cheaped out on the leather. The USAF went with goat only after it became the cheaper option.

I wonder if those guys in the Air Corps would have laughed a little.

 

[Banzai]

The first A-1s were capeskin, which is softer than goat.

 

[Ralph_Phillips]

Horsehide was more likely chosen not so much for the cost, but rather the fact that at that time, horsehide was the best choice for serious protective clothing. That is also why a lot of bikers still prefer it over any other leather. Not that anyone in their right mind actually wants to have an accident and skid across asphalt, but given a choice of leathers for that, horsehide is the best.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Horsehide was also chosen during WW2 because of the availability. They were still being used on many farms and the hides were much larger than goat hides thus able to produce more jackets.
HD

 

[Ralph_Phillips]

Horsehide was also chosen during WW2 because of the availability. They were still being used on many farms and the hides were much larger than goat hides thus able to produce more jackets.
HD

There might have been plenty of draft horses in Indiana but in a lot of places mules were more commonly used as farm implements. My guess is plenty of those horsehide A2's were actually mule hides back then but mule hide doesn't sound quite as upscale as horsehide even if they're both identical except for two molecules.

 

[Seb Lucas]

We know A2's were made of cow, goat and horse. As to horse hide I have only ever had Aero FQHH which I didn't like. I like goat a lot, it's tough and light. I personally don't like wearing heavy clothes whether it be leather or tweed. I prefer my leather jackets to be windbreakers.

Dinerman makes a good point elsewhere that horsehide used in the 1930's was lighter than much of the hide used today.

I personally aren't all that interested in boutique leathers, I don't have that level of attention to detail, I'm just as happy with G&B, Schott leathers and quality.

 

[Banzai]

Regarding mulehide...

Technically, yes. Leather purveyors can sell horse, mule, or donkey as "equine hide".

 

[Superfluous]

I just tried on a Real McCoys black Shinki horsehide jacket that blew me away. It was softer and thicker than my Goodwear Shinki which is a bit stiffer like most Horse I've experienced.

Where di you try it on? New jacket?

Yeah my Real McCoy's horsehide on the A2 I have is different than the stuff I got from Diamond Dave. Very interesting. Also, the shinki I've tried on from Flat Head is also different from either of those. There are quite a few different shinki hides out there, all of which are incredible.

I don't know about DD, but Flat Head Shinki is definitely different than RMC or GW Shinki.