A-2 jackets -- what constitutes 'authentic' ?

[Dudleydoright]

I imagine that the debate of an authentic repro has been had but I've not yet come across it. It seems to be many things to many people and each seems to think that his corruption of the word is the true one.

To me a repro is a repro and an original is authentic and an authentic repro is actually a contradiction in terms.

So, I'm interested in hearing what people think constitutes an authentic repro. It could apply to many things but perhaps the most annually ( ) retentive collectors seem to be the ones connected to A-2's and so I'm aiming it at them (and me as someone who has several and has had many more repro A-2's) ......

Is the appearance more authentic than the components ? Can a jacket that looks right (in someone's opinion) still be authentic if the hides come from Japan where the original jackets were being worn whilst bombing said country ? Must all the components come from the Good Ol' U.S of A to make an authentic jacket or can it's parts come from anywhere ?

Can ANY jacket made to measure be considered authentic ? Or should exact patterns be used to have a period sizing regardless of modern bodyshapes ?

Must the stitch count be within + or - 1 stitch per inch to be considered correct and must the thread itself be 100% cotton ?

Must the hide be horse even if modern steer gives a better appearance than modern horse ? Should the horse be range / wild rather than domestic and have had as hard a life as a 1940's horse ?

Must the zipper be made on the same type of press as a period one in the same way that the hide ought (?) to made tanned using the original methods and chemicals (be they banned or otherwise) ?

A lot of these details are dealt with by the various repro makers but rarely are they all included . Eastman may use US hides but makes the jackets in the UK. Good Wear makes his jackets in the US but his hides are coming from Japan. RMNZ ...... well, they are made in New Zealand and Real McCoys are from Japan.

Most modern repros are better made than their originals. Should that be ??

Should jacket afficianados have a points tally for each little thing and see if the total for their jacket allows them to use the word 'authentic' ? And thus generate THE most authentic A-2 ?

Does it really matter ? No, not to me and not to 99.99999% of the population. I have reached the point where I have a jacket that satisfies me personally, but I am curious to hear what makes a good repro and has the pinnacle now been reached ? And by whom ? And how could it get even better ? I start to get the feeling that as a marketing ploy, rather like with cars, the so-called ultimate repro could be made right now but then what would that do to demand ? Once you had bought one, would you then sell it on to fund the next 'most authentic' repro ? This is oft skirted around but never dealt with head on for some reason. It's also a moving target as repro makers keep upping their game.

We are now at a point where some repros cost more than the originals. Understandable if you want new and the convenience of not searching for it. But where will it all end ?

The floor is open to views from all comers ................. but remember, I am not asking for a particular name here folks, we are talking about generalities !!!

 

[aswatland]

Dave, there are so many questions raised in your post that a book would need to written to answer them!

Personally I don't like the phrase "authentic reproduction", preferring "accurate reproduction" instead.

To start with if one talks about an accurate reproduction of a particular wartime or pre-war A2 contract one must remember that there were often differences within contracts in terms of the hide, zips, type of snaps, construction quality etc..I know some collectors have had clones made of a particular original A2 to achieve a very accurate repro.

For me an accurate repro should capture the essence of the contract it is based upon. So it should replicate the pattern exactly, have the correct hardware, lining, stitching and knits.

The origin of the hh or goat does not concern me as long as it closely resembles originals from the contract. This is where many repros fall down in that the leather is very rarely a close match to 1940s leather. Eastman's Warhorse and John Chapman's new Japanese hh and goatskin are very close.

The current crop of Goodwear A2s and some of ELC's original maker jackets are generally accurate repros of particular contracts.

At the end of the day if you want a totally accurate A2 as a collectable, buy an original, but if you want one for daily use then there is plenty of choice if your pockets are deep enough. You could alway get JC to clone your original!

 

[RLM]

Well, I was going to add my 2 cents, but it seems Andrew, being more knowlegeable on the subject than I, said it better than I would have, so any further comment from me on the subject would just be redundant and possibly show my general ignorance .

 

[Silver Dollar]

As far as I know, I agree with Andrew. Accurate refers to repro and authentic refers to original or real. Every collector is different and every collector looks for different things. Personally, I don't wear any of my original A2's. I treat them as pieces of history and don't want them to deteriorate because I wore them out. Plus, none of them fit me anyway. ( Were all the WWII men so skinny??) IMHO, I want an A2 jacket that looks very close to the original that I can paint on. If the thread stitches are a slight bit too big, no sweat. If the leather is a slight bit too dark, no problem. If the lining doesn't have the little AN rubber stamp, that's o.k. too. If it looks just like the AAF issue, that's what I want. If it has handwarmer pockets, is made of a weird leather, if it's not brown, fits like a potato sack or zips up the side, then forget about it. Once you get to a certain point concerning accuracy, you reach that so called point of diminishing returns. Unless you belong to a club where every member counts all the stitches, uses a spectrophotometer to choose the color or measures every part, and there's nothing wrong with that, ultra-accuracy means everything. To me and me only, the average person in the street has no idea what is real WWII and what is not. All they see is a brown leather jacket. If you have a painting on the back, they'll say it's nice but they won't know its significance. I learned this the hard way. Now for the main point. (finally I'm there) You have to do what is right for you and forget what everyone else says. That's what they like and that's what they should do. We each come to the table with our own desires. My own desires are what I follow.

 

[442RCT]

A-2s 'R US

I'm an accumulator who is ambivalent about the details of what makes a reproduction A-2, authentic. If the jacket is reasonably well made and has the basic features representative of the A-2, it's good enough for me. If the jacket has decent artwork, then I am willing to forgive it being less authentic. One of my hobbies is picking up "orphan" A-2 jackets. Currently my favorite A-2 is one manufactured by Sefton, which is not a repro of any WW2 contract and is considered what is known as a house brand.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

I bought my A2 through the American Express catalog years ago and, you know what, I get a lot of compliments on it - probably because it's different - it has that ciggie pocket on the left shoulder. You just don't see that very often on a leather A2 jacket.

-dixon cannon

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

A one piece back for painting nose art on,.worsted wool knits, collar stand, proper snaps, zipper, and throat hook hardware in either horse or goat skin with nicely detailed pocket flaps in one or the other proper colors. I don't mind modern extras such as hand warmer pockets, or better yet, inside pockets to stow sunglasses, etc.
I think the one thing I absolutely insist upon is the one piece back, as it's the most accurate surface on which to paint nose art.

 

[aswatland]

Nick, most WW2 A2s did not have collar stands. An accurate repro doesn't have to have a collar stand provided of course it's based on an original which did not have one!

 

[Spitfire]

The only difference between a "accurate repro" and a "real one" is the last one has been flying. The first one has not.

 

[Dudleydoright]

I've flown in my repro's

If you'd said "flown and shot at" though, I would have to defer !

Dave

 

[aswatland]

The only difference between a "accurate repro" and a "real one" is the last one has been flying. The first one has not.

Good point Soren. Of course some senior officers only flew a desk in their A2s!

 

[Phantomfixer]

untrue untrue says I. My authentic/accurate reproductions have flown all over Europe and the USA on military aircraft (not performing inflight duities)and a few civilian ones too.lol But alas Spitfire it is true, at the end of the day you still just have a reproduction not a 67 year old piece of history.

 

[jeep44]

A one piece back for painting nose art on,.worsted wool knits, collar stand, proper snaps, zipper, and throat hook hardware in either horse or goat skin with nicely detailed pocket flaps in one or the other proper colors. I don't mind modern extras such as hand warmer pockets, or better yet, inside pockets to stow sunglasses, etc.
I think the one thing I absolutely insist upon is the one piece back, as it's the most accurate surface on which to paint nose art.

My Dad's issue A2 has a two-piece back, divided by a seam across the shoulders. Here he is wearing it:

 

[tonypaj]

Having done my military service all I can say about the military gear is that its main purpose is to be functional and that most of the time the style and looks are secondary. A-2s fall in that category, as well, as far as I'm concerned.

Otherwise I'm a bit confused with A-2s. Hardly anyone looks good in them, but they are nice jackets in pictures and in real life as long as no one wears them. In fact they are to me a total contradiction as far as clothing goes. About authentic, well, the originals are originals, the rest depends 100% on the eyes of the beholder.

 

[aswatland]

Otherwise I'm a bit confused with A-2s. Hardly anyone looks good in them, but they are nice jackets in pictures and in real life as long as no one wears them. In fact they are to me a total contradiction as far as clothing goes. About authentic, well, the originals are originals, the rest depends 100% on the eyes of the beholder.

My goodness me you either don't like or don't appreciate A2s. "Hardly anyone looks good in them" is your subjective opinion and will not go down well with the many people here who enjoy wearing them.

 

[tonypaj]

My goodness me you either don't like or don't appreciate A2s. "Hardly anyone looks good in them" is your subjective opinion and will not go down well with the many people here who enjoy wearing them.

Purely subjective, there's nothing objective in opinions about clothing. As I said, they are great jackets as such, I have nothing at all against them, and if people wish to wear them, good for them.

I have had A-2s, I have worn them, as well, but the military stuff is not for this sergeant for the moment. I don't rule out an A-2 or an A-1 in the future, though. And even that doesn't change my purely subjective opinion, it takes a lot to look good in them.

 

[BellyTank]

I know what he means- it can be a hard look to pull off,
especially for 30, 40 and 50-somethings.
I gave up on A-2s.


B
T

 

[aswatland]

I know what he means- it can be a hard look to pull off,
especially for 30, 40 and 50-somethings.
I gave up on A-2s.


B
T

It's not age which is the problem with wearing A2s today but the size of the girth.

It's interesting to read on the forum all the positive comments about members wearing A2s.

 

[Fletch]

Real-world accuracy is usually enough. That's when you don't go too far in any major direction, and when the changes made allow for comfort or practicality.

- A chrome-tanned finish is all right. A plasticy perma-sheen finish is not.
- Cowhide is all right. Distressed lambskin is not.
- A crisp modernly-proportioned cut is all right. A gangsta-baggy cut is not.
- Elasticized knits are all right (sometimes even preferable). Pilling synthetics are not.
- Slightly larger pockets are all right. Pockets you could put your lunch in are not.
- Hidden warmer pockets are all right (tho hard to get). Besomed slots are not.
- A satiny lining is all right. A squeaky synthetic or cheesy graphic lining is not.

I like to ask myself: If I put a bit of wear and break-in on a jacket, and was time-warped into 1940something with it on, how well would it convince people who had better things to do than scrutinize my jacket?

 

[captaincaveman1]

It's not age which is the problem with wearing A2s today but the size of the girth.

It's interesting to read on the forum all the positive comments about members wearing A2s.

So true. A-2's are not the most flattering jackets - especially with a wallet and cellphone bulging out of the two front pockets. Definitely harder to pull off if you're slighly overweight or out of shape, I've noticed.