9mm or 45cal

[Stearmen]

Sort of like the old saw: A good big man will alwlays defeat a good small man.

I don't know about always, the right little man, could beat the big man. 5'7" did beat 7'2"! [video=youtube;8ic2k2P_FG0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ic2k2P_FG0[/video]

 

[Highlander]

Here's my thought, I'd love to carry something like a Walther PPK and the minute I pull it, it transitions in a 1911 .45. But that doesn't happen. The .45 is an awesome weapon, and if you watch on youtube the various bullets and their penetration into ballistic gel, and the various calibers, it is amazing.

But, if you won't carry the .45 because it's too bulky, get really good with the .22, .380 or 9mm that you are comfortable with and WILL carry. None of them do you any good at home in the gun safe if you need them.

 

[DeaconKC]

Here's my thought, I'd love to carry something like a Walther PPK and the minute I pull it, it transitions in a 1911 .45. But that doesn't happen. The .45 is an awesome weapon, and if you watch on youtube the various bullets and their penetration into ballistic gel, and the various calibers, it is amazing.

But, if you won't carry the .45 because it's too bulky, get really good with the .22, .380 or 9mm that you are comfortable with and WILL carry. None of them do you any good at home in the gun safe if you need them.

And remember, a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .45.

 

[totallyfrozen]

Page and pages of opinions on this topic. I'm just wondering which of you (soldiers, Marines, police...or anyone else, I guess) have ACTUALLY SHOT SOMEONE with either of these calibers?
I'm interested in hearing from people who've used the 9mm and the .45ACP in an actual gunfight. Magazine articles and product reviews and ballistic tests and gel patterns, etc. etc. etc. are amusing and can be informative. I'm more of a non-theory, no nonsense type guy. I want to hear from people who've actually shot people.
Don't cringe at that. It's not taboo. Just because someone shoots someone else doesn't mean they're a murderer or that they were in the wrong. There are plenty of justifiable scenarios. I'm waiting to hear from those.

Thanks for your time.

 

[DeaconKC]

Okay, I am a Parole Agent and have talked with enough investigators to form an opinion. NOTHING handheld is totally reliable. A local felon took two .40 rounds to the head and chest a couple years ago and survived due to cockroach rules. The improvements in JHP ammo in the last 25 years are incredible, and from what we are learning that makes a huge difference. I looked the other day and realized I have come around as well. My house handguns are still in .45 but I now carry a 9mm, .38+P or .40 off duty.

 

[PistolPete1969]

My new EDC is a Taurus PT145 in .45 acp. I have shot a LOT of .45 acp over the years, and will always own a 1911. However, the Taurus is my carry for several reasons; 1) weight/size..it isn't much bigger than a Walther PPK/ Makarov and just about as slim 2) Its a striker-fire, like the Glocks, so its safe to carry in Condition 1. 3) Its a .45 acp. I carry JHP's in it and am totally confident in it. "9mm may expand, but a .45 wont shrink". 4) It has a 10 + 1 capacity.

Just my 2 cents....

 

[Peacoat]

Page and pages of opinions on this topic. I'm just wondering which of you (soldiers, Marines, police...or anyone else, I guess) have ACTUALLY SHOT SOMEONE with either of these calibers?
I'm interested in hearing from people who've used the 9mm and the .45ACP in an actual gunfight. Magazine articles and product reviews and ballistic tests and gel patterns, etc. etc. etc. are amusing and can be informative. I'm more of a non-theory, no nonsense type guy. I want to hear from people who've actually shot people.
Don't cringe at that. It's not taboo. Just because someone shoots someone else doesn't mean they're a murderer or that they were in the wrong. There are plenty of justifiable scenarios. I'm waiting to hear from those.

Thanks for your time.

You won't get any responses to your question. Shooting someone is a very traumatic event in one's life, especially if the person dies. A police officer who is unfortunate enough to shoot and kill someone is not going to post here, or anywhere else, about the effectiveness of the ammunition used in the shooting. This is a topic that is best left unexplored by the involved officer.

There have been a bunch of studies done on the effectiveness of ammunition used in police shooting. One guy, in particular, has done a lot of research on this topic. Unfortunately, I can't remember his name right now. If I come up with it in the future, I will come back and post it here.

 

[pawineguy]

You won't get any responses to your question. Shooting someone is a very traumatic event in one's life, especially if the person dies. A police officer who is unfortunate enough to shoot and kill someone is not going to post here, or anywhere else, about the effectiveness of the ammunition used in the shooting. This is a topic that is best left unexplored by the involved officer.

There have been a bunch of studies done on the effectiveness of ammunition used in police shooting. One guy, in particular, has done a lot of research on this topic. Unfortunately, I can't remember his name right now. If I come up with it in the future, I will come back and post it here.

+1 - I've had conversations (many times) with my brother, who's a police Captain in a very high crime area, and has seen his share of shootings. He's also a firearms expert and competitive shooter. As you note, after shooting someone, the officer involved certainly won't want to discuss this topic. But, even if they did, it's only additional anecdotal information. As my brother tells me, he's seen fatalities in the streets from .22s that nick an artery, and survivors from .45s that miraculously miss major organs. It's a roll of the dice.

A cousin, who was on patrol one night right after his state court had ruled that police were allowed to use deadly force against assailants who were ramming their patrol car (this was when the criminals first realized they could set off air bags), fired into a car containing multiple occupants, hitting the driver I believe at least a dozen times with 9mm. He survived, as each penetration either hit an extremity or missed major organs, and of course the medical response was immediate since the officers were involved. My point is that any individual story just further skews the debate and is nothing more than a single data point.

 

[totallyfrozen]

...There have been a bunch of studies done on the effectiveness of ammunition used in police shootings. One guy, in particular, has done a lot of research on this topic...

And yet the debate on this topic has been raging since the 1980's and continues on to this day. Oh well, I guess there isn't really a definitive answer to this since the reality is that any GWS can potentially be deadly (meaning that it's best not to get shot by anything). Today the Army issues the Berretta M9 (9mm) which I carried. The US military uses that caliber because it's less expensive than .45 ACP (the likely reason that the other NATO nations use it also). Prior to WWI when Uncle Sam was looking for a service pistol (and when the world was less kind to God's creatures) they tested various handgun calibers on live cattle (I've seen photos of this) to determine the one with the most consistent knock down, one-shot-kill power and the .45 was the winner.
Police officers use whatever their departments issue and most police officers are not gun experts by any means. Sure, some police instructors are but most "beat cops" are not. The vast majority of police never use their side arm in the line of duty. Now add to that the factors that you laid out where the minority who may have had to shoot won't talk and we're left with some secret mystery as to the effectiveness of the 9mm or .40 S&W
The reality is there are police forums where sometimes these things are discussed. I've been on them and seen some discussions myself but they're rare. I do think you might be correct in assuming they wouldn't discuss those incidents here on FL. Regardless, the one thing we can learn from police shootings is that shot placement is crucial to success. Shot in the foot with a .45 vs shot in the head with a .22--is it the caliber that makes the difference?



Sent from my iPhone 5c using Tapatalk

 

[Peacoat]

Agreed that most officers are not gun experts and that the vast majority never have to use their weapon. There are exceptions, however. I knew a female officer who has shot and killed three bad guys in the line of duty, and another officer I knew has dispatched, I believe, four of them. We were at lunch one day and the other officers were discussing how some officers were just unlucky in getting into deadly shooting situations. They cited the officers I mentioned as examples. None of the officers at the table had ever fired their weapons except during training. Together they had over 60 years service as police officers.

I came up with the name of the fellow I mentioned in one of my posts above. It is Ayoob Massad. He has written a lot of books and articles over his career. Many are cited in the link below. There are enough articles there to keep one busy for a long time.

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Ayoob,+Massad&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gws_rd=ssl

 

[Bamaboots]

Peacoat, Ayoob is a fellow I followed by reading everything I could find by him in the early 80's, at the start of my career. He is an expert on the 'point and shoot' technique in CQB.

In regards to officers firing their weapons, the first SWAT school I attended, there were around 35 in the class and when polled, only about six or seven had ever fired their weapons outside of training. Of those six or seven, five were on the same team. Two on that team had been in more than one gunfight.

 

[IXL]

Agreed that most officers are not gun experts and that the vast majority never have to use their weapon. There are exceptions, however. I knew a female officer who has shot and killed three bad guys in the line of duty, and another officer I knew has dispatched, I believe, four of them. We were at lunch one day and the other officers were discussing how some officers were just unlucky in getting into deadly shooting situations. They cited the officers I mentioned as examples. None of the officers at the table had ever fired their weapons except during training. Together they had over 60 years service as police officers.

I came up with the name of the fellow I mentioned in one of my posts above. It is Ayoob Massad. He has written a lot of books and articles over his career. Many are cited in the link below. There are enough articles there to keep one busy for a long time.

"Ayoob" is his last name. One of my favorite off-duty holsters was termed the "Ayoob Rear Guard" by the manufacturer back when I purchased it. Then 09-11 occurred, and the manufacturer saw fit to remove any reference of a name like "Ayoob" and renamed it the "Freedom," or the "Patriot" Rear Guard, or something like that. I always felt it was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, myself.

 

[Peacoat]

"Ayoob" is his last name. One of my favorite off-duty holsters was termed the "Ayoob Rear Guard" by the manufacturer back when I purchased it. Then 09-11 occurred, and the manufacturer saw fit to remove any reference of a name like "Ayoob" and renamed it the "Freedom," or the "Patriot" Rear Guard, or something like that. I always felt it was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, myself.

Yes, especially since his grandparents immigrated here in the late 1800s. And you are right, his last name is Ayoob.

Peacoat, Ayoob is a fellow I followed by reading everything I could find by him in the early 80's, at the start of my career. He is an expert on the 'point and shoot' technique in CQB.

In regards to officers firing their weapons, the first SWAT school I attended, there were around 35 in the class and when polled, only about six or seven had ever fired their weapons outside of training. Of those six or seven, five were on the same team. Two on that team had been in more than one gunfight.

Yes, I too read everything I could by Massad. Back then there was not much internet, so everything had to be hard copy. He used to write a lot for Guns Magazine. I subscribed for several years so I would get his articles. He may even have been an editor for the magazine at some point in his career.

I am surprised there were that many officers in your department who had fired their weapons outside of training. That actually seems to be a high percentage. I have worked with the police for much of my career and know very few who have fired their weapons on the street. The female officer I mentioned in a prior post was at the wrong place at the wrong time on several occasions. She worked in a very active zone.

The first time, she and another officer were responding to a robbery in progress at an upstairs apartment in their zone. The male officer entered the doorway first and started to go up the stairs with her still just outside the door as there wasn't enough room for two of them to enter together. The doorway was at a right angle to the stairs. He was armed with his service revolver and she with the riot gun. At that time our department issued #1 buckshot for the shotguns, and may still do so.

Just as the male officer put his foot on the first step, one of the robbers fired down at him with a sawed off shotgun. The female officer immediately pushed her way through the doorway right behind the wounded officer and fired up the stairs at the gunman. The #1 buck did its job. That part of the gunfight was over. But there were other robbers still in the apartment. I can't remember what happened after that to clear the apartment, but it was fairly exciting. I think some people were jumping out of windows. Another one or two of the bad guys may have been shot. The officer who had been shot survived, and after several surgeries on his right arm, including a skin graft, was able to return to work and complete his career without much more excitement. The other shootings the female officer was involved in were with her service revolver. All were ruled legal ("good") shootings.

The female officer later was made a detective and moved up in the police hierarchy. A few years after this incident, we dated for awhile. We never discussed her shootings, but she was very particular about carrying her service revolver with her everywhere she went, both on and off duty, and she was dedicated to range work. She had a pocketbook made with a holster inside for quick draw, and she would practice drawing from the pocketbook. The police range was on the other side of town, but I knew a place close by where we could go. We shot together several times. That is how I know she would practice drawing and firing from the pocketbook. That wasn't authorized at the police range. While I also trained at the police range, it was more fun to go shooting with a good looking female on our own.

Back then, there were very few female police officers, and pocketbooks, bags and holsters just weren't made for women. The pocketbook she had made had the holster right at the top of the bag, so when the bag was opened, the revolver was visible. She had it made that way for quick access as she knew from experience how quickly things happened and how fast she would need to draw her weapon. She would try and keep the weapon hidden when accessing items in her pocketbook, but that was sometimes hard to do. Once we were at the store to get some things she needed. The lady at check out saw the weapon when the pocketbook was opened, and got very pale very fast. My friend realized what had happened, pointed to her badge next to the weapon, smiled and said, "It's OK, I'm a police officer." That was one very relieved cashier.

I could tell police stories for the rest of the day (and night), but I need to move on with other things.

BamaBoots, I'm glad you are familiar with Massad. Looks as if others are as well. There is a lot of knowledge there. Roll Tide. PC.

 

[Bamaboots]

"Ayoob" is his last name. One of my favorite off-duty holsters was termed the "Ayoob Rear Guard" by the manufacturer back when I purchased it. Then 09-11 occurred, and the manufacturer saw fit to remove any reference of a name like "Ayoob" and renamed it the "Freedom," or the "Patriot" Rear Guard, or something like that. I always felt it was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, myself.

IXL, the rear guard is one of the names used for that type of holster and the other, though I'm not sure it was attributed to Massad Ayoob, was the SOB (Small Of Back) holster. Carried one for years.

 

[newsman]

Here's my thought, I'd love to carry something like a Walther PPK and the minute I pull it, it transitions in a 1911 .45. But that doesn't happen. The .45 is an awesome weapon, and if you watch on youtube the various bullets and their penetration into ballistic gel, and the various calibers, it is amazing.

Wow. I'm a day late and a buck sort for commenting on this thread. You may flog me at will for my efforts.

But...here's two cents from a guy who's been packing for more than 22 years at work and daily life. I pack a full-sized 1911 most days with a Colt Officers as a backup (shoulder rig)...at a minimum a Smith and Wesson .357 on my ankle instead of the Officers. Even then it's not far to a shotgun (i speak shotgun fluently) and a rifle. Off days it's normally a Colt Commander and the .357.

Most people can get away with a lot less. A .38 special is perfectly fine. My wife carries a .357 with a three inch barrel and shoots .38s out of it. She runs that thing like a scalded cat. Her reloads are faster than a card shark with an ace up his sleeve.

No matter what you carry buy quality and get some real training. Not a one day course. Something that is two or three days and repeat it as often as you can afford as these are perishable skills. Pratice as much as you can. Know the difference between "games" and real training.

In the world of training there are a few really outstanding professionals and a lot of OK ones...and one's you should run from so do your home work.

A recent poll of about a dozen high end instructors with real world experience (many cases in conflict, not just street encounters) resulted in 8 suggesting the 9mm is a great defense round. I can see that with modern ammunition. (just adding fuel to the debate). I'm a purest. I like .45s. The Navy just went to Glock 9mms for their special warfare teams. That looks like a trend. The army has done the same for some time...

 

[jkingrph]

Okay, I am a Parole Agent and have talked with enough investigators to form an opinion. NOTHING handheld is totally reliable. A local felon took two .40 rounds to the head and chest a couple years ago and survived due to cockroach rules. The improvements in JHP ammo in the last 25 years are incredible, and from what we are learning that makes a huge difference. I looked the other day and realized I have come around as well. My house handguns are still in .45 but I now carry a 9mm, .38+P or .40 off duty.

I think this can apply to most of the modern handgun rounds commonly encountered. With good expanding bullets they can do quite a bit of damage. Now your statement about reliability is diminished a bit if you consider other handgun rounds such as the 45 long Colt, 44 mag, and newer things as the .454 Casul and 50 S&W. Those things are so big and pack so much energy, unless you hit a hand or foot, the results should be quite incapacitated .

As far as reliability, a hit with a modern high power rifle would not be incapacitating if the bullet were not properly placed. Consider a modern FMJ military rifle round say an old 30 cal. If it does not hit something vital it's going to hurt, a lot, but totally incapacitate the target, no. My father in law caught a round in the throat at Anzio in WWII, it knocked him down, but did not immediately stop him. It caused some minor speech problems and slowed down his chewing and handling of food in his mouth, but no other problems. Brother in law caught a couple of 50 cal rounds in the leg in a friendly fire incident that did stop him It caused some long term nerve problems and minor limp but otherwise ok.

A little .25 auto round properly placed might be more reliable than a 9mm if properly placed vs a misplaced shot from larger round, but a lot of shooting incidents show that many rounds are most definitely not properly placed. If I were being shot out I do not know if I could remain calm enough to return a well aimed shot, and can only hope that I could. Never want to have to try .

 

[416rigby]

Just depends on my mood-

 

[Highlander]

Page and pages of opinions on this topic. I'm just wondering which of you (soldiers, Marines, police...or anyone else, I guess) have ACTUALLY SHOT SOMEONE with either of these calibers?
I'm interested in hearing from people who've used the 9mm and the .45ACP in an actual gunfight. Magazine articles and product reviews and ballistic tests and gel patterns, etc. etc. etc. are amusing and can be informative. I'm more of a non-theory, no nonsense type guy. I want to hear from people who've actually shot people.
Don't cringe at that. It's not taboo. Just because someone shoots someone else doesn't mean they're a murderer or that they were in the wrong. There are plenty of justifiable scenarios. I'm waiting to hear from those.

Thanks for your time.

Well sir, I've not shot anyone. However, I have had a drug crazed idiot come into my home (I'd just returned from bicycling, it was dusk, and I'd jumped in the shower), when I got out of the shower, I heard voice(s) at my front door. I couldn't find my glasses, but did wrap a towel around me and grabbed my 1911/.45 as I crept down the hallway. I got to the foyer of my house, and there was a man in an A-Shirt, shaved head, and something glowing in his hand...about 12 feet from me. His comments kept being repeated, "They are after me".. I thought there was a drug deal going down in my living room the only light from a small tiffany lamp in my living room.

I leveled my .45 at him and told him it was best he leave... He then started walking toward me. I racked the slide on the .45 chambering a round. At that point I said something like "get the heck out of my house", (but more colorful), and even in his drug addled stated, he knew the sound of the gun slide. He then turned and said, "my name is (John Doe), and the police have been called"...

The entire thing was surreal, and I had gone to total focus and tunnel vision watching him as he'd moved toward me... And then, it all turned to slow motion as he sort of "floated out" of my house.

I immediately called the police, the came to the neighborhood went by my house and up to the neighbors up the street, then leading the suspect of out their house. He'd broken in, they'd pulled shotgun on him and held him there for the Police.

Thank goodness, he made the right decision and left my home and I did NOT have to shoot him. We was out on bail at the time awaiting several jury trials for drugs and theft. (I would go into more conversation with the Police and the Local Prosecutor, as they were 100% on my and my neighbor's side).

He did spend 6 months in jail for this, and told everyone at the Local Jail Facility and the Sheriff (who's a good friend) advised me to told everyone at the Jail, "Don't go to XYZ Neightborhood, THEY"VE ALL GOT GUNS"....

 

[Highlander]

Just depends on my mood-

 

[Highlander]

I totally understand on that.