9mm or 45cal

[Renault]

Don't want to start a storm or anything. But from my perspective (gun repair), we are being fed some pretty questionable commercial ammo these days. Quality control in some instances is quite suspect. And it's not just one or two particular brands or types. We've seen it from every major manufacturer out there. It's almost a luck of the draw thing........

The higher end ammo like the premium hunting stuff and personal defense doesn't appear to be so bad. But we've seen it in rimfire (especially!!!), center-fire, rifle, handgun, shotgun, you name it. I speculate that current military contracts are getting the good stuff (and rightly so). Like I said, my speculation. We should be thankful ammunition isn't being rationed as in WWII!

But I've seen (heard) squib loads, mis-fires, no fires, split cases, wrong ammo in sealed boxes, primers not seated all the way in pocket, bullets not seated properly, and collapsed case necks. IMHO, manufacturers are producing cases out of material not suited for the purpose......

Renault

 

[DeaconKC]

No Storm here Renault! I too, have found the same thing in ammo quality. Ultramag, Wolf have both failed me badly in the last year. Rimfire has been a crap shoot with the last 3 bricks i bought from Remington, Winchester and Federal. Hopefully, as the war in Afghanistan closes down, the makers can catch their breath and get back to their previous quality levels.

 

[Buggnkat]

Like you guys I have found rimfire to be spotty at best also. Out of a brick I had at least 10 that were misfires or failure to fire. These were Winchester and Federals for the most part.

For my 45 I stick with Remington, they have been pretty good rounds for me. I know for my rifles (mainly 30-06) Federal and Winchester have failed me there too. Geez I am sounding like a Remington commercial, but they havent failed me yet. Now I have called down the Powder gods!

 

[Renault]

The only thing I've seen bad from Remington was a batch of 30-30 Winchester that the shoulders would split in any rifle we shot them in.

Had a factory .30 carbine fire out of battery because the primer was sticking way too far out of the primer pocket! Carbine was locked up. Customet brought in the barreled action. No trigger assembly. Bolt edge was resting on the side of the primer. A gentle tap backwards on the charging handle set off the primer. Was just glad we were prepared for it.

Had fair luck with CCI rimfire ammo. Love those "Velacitors" they make. They are deadly accuracte out of my CZ 452.

But back on topic, 9mm or 45;

One thing I've seen in auto handgun ammo is a rolled crimp on the cartridge mouth which destroys your headspace and can give all kinds of function issues. Usually a problem in the larger calibres.

This was always the reason I was told the double action auto pistol was developed (P-38?). As primer quality was poor in many ammo types, and it gave you the ability to snap again on a mis-fire without starting an immediate action drill.

 

[Kirk H.]

We issue Winchester SXT rounds and have had some problems with the FMJ practice rounds ranging from hard primers to the occasional squib load. Before we issued Winchester we issued Federal Hydrashock and we had similar issues with their American Eagle practice rounds. I will say that with the Winchester it seems to have been that particualr shipment we received because all the others shipments we have received have functioned properly so hopefully they have gotten their quality control back in control.

 

[Bob_Fixico]

I have had various use of 45acp and 9mm over my years in the US Army I like them both but will always go back home to the 45acp. I just remember this quote from training. "If you shoot a man in the pinky finger with the 45 he will fall because he will think he just lost his hand." Never been shot in pinky finger myself but I still believe this to be true. I do know what it feels like to get hit by a 7.62x39 in the feet and leg. Will tell you this it does not tickle.

 

[Story]

Hi
Zombieland Rule #2, "Double Tap Everything". Look it up... O.K. it's from a ZOMBIE movie, but it's still a great idea.

Later

Ha. I don't have to, saw it.

Mantras aside, sometimes circumstances dictate getting only one shot - why else would you blow a hole in your own clothing?

 

[John in Covina]

The manufacturers are probably having components made in China. Quality Control are 2 words there are no Chinese translations for. From the same people that brought deadly dog food, children's candy and toys with extra LEAD.

 

[Mr Vim]

Speaking as a prior soldier... 45 all the way, more stopping power.
Speaking as a someone living in Alaska... 45 all the way, more stopping power for bears but it might just make them angrier.

 

[DeaconKC]

I just did this article on the Great 9v45 debate:
http://www.surplus-rifle.com/2012/04/04/9mm-vs-45/
Please give me your opinions.

 

[Kirk H.]

I just did this article on the Great 9v45 debate:
http://www.surplus-rifle.com/2012/04/04/9mm-vs-45/
Please give me your opinions.

Good article. I know that S&W just a got a military contract for M&P 45's, so it looks like the U.S. is going back to the old 45 ACP round but with a new platform.

 

[Widebrim]

Speaking as a prior soldier... 45 all the way, more stopping power.
Speaking as a someone living in Alaska... 45 all the way, more stopping power for bears but it might just make them angrier.

Also speaking as a former Soldier, I preferred the .45 over the 9mm. I trained on the .45 in Infantry school, and then years later was introduced to the 9mm in Mech. Infantry school. I also sometimes carried a 9mm overseas, so I have some experience with both. The .45 has more power behind it (aided by a larger round), the main reason why the Philippine/Moro Constabularies exchanged their .38s for .45 revolvers in 1902, and why the U.S. Army adopted the .45 semi-automatic pistol for use against the Moros in the southern Philippines (although the latter weapon never actually got to be used for that purpose). Interestingly enough, the U.S. Army originally issued 9mm semi-automatic pistols (Lugers) to troops fighting the Moros, but the weapons were found to be inadequate. Brigadier General Samuel S. Sumner, commander of the Department of Mindanao and Sulu, wrote to Army officials that the Luger was "too complicated, and cartridges often jam, but the main defect is that the bullet will not stop a Moro."

 

[jkingrph]

I just did this article on the Great 9v45 debate:
http://www.surplus-rifle.com/2012/04/04/9mm-vs-45/
Please give me your opinions.

Good well thought out article. I tend to lean toward the .45 side of the argument, although I have a couple of 9mm. handguns.

So far as difficult to handle, my worst is a Walther ppk 380 ACP.

I had been into the .45 and 9mm shooting for quite a while when the 10mm came out and got one of those, It tends to recoil a bit more than the .45, but later the .40 S&W was developed and although I have not tried one of those it appears to me to be an ideal comprimise, bigger bullet than the 9mm, more velocity and the possibility of a smaller grip size than a .45, and if you condider the same size gun larger magazine capacity than the .45.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[Mr Vim]

"too complicated, and cartridges often jam, but the main defect is that the bullet will not stop a Moro."

My history instructor told us this story, the reason the bullet wouldn't stop a Moro he said was because many of them were often on opiates and were on such a high that they would keep charging even though they'd been shot...

Historically accurate? I'm not sure, but it's a good story.

 

[Widebrim]

My history instructor told us this story, the reason the bullet wouldn't stop a Moro he said was because many of them were often on opiates and were on such a high that they would keep charging even though they'd been shot...

Historically accurate? I'm not sure, but it's a good story.

As you implied, its accuracy has been disputed, but it is a good story. I have read personal accounts of U.S. troops describing how certain Moros would take a dozen shots from .38s before falling...

 

[1961MJS]

Hi

You have to remember that you're comparing both a .45 Long Colt and a .45 ACP both with 200 plus grain bullets (230 in the case of .45 ACP), against a .38 Long Colt, not even a .38 Special. If you look up both the rounds in reloading websites, even the 9x19 is substantially more powerful than the .38 Long Colt.

Later

 

[John in Covina]

i liked using 147grain subsonic hollow points in my 9 but the Israeli burp gun ammo was fun too.

 

[Buggnkat]

I just did this article on the Great 9v45 debate:
http://www.surplus-rifle.com/2012/04/04/9mm-vs-45/
Please give me your opinions.

Pretty fair and balanced article. Thanks for sharing.

having carried 38s, 9s and 45s I do tend to lean to the 45s. I found them reliable and relatively accurate as far as service pistols go. Understand, service pistols are different breed of cat than what you can buy at the local gun store. They have been beaten to heck and back, seldom used as they should and are repaired by a 19 year old "school trained" armorer. I could shoot around corners with my 38. She was pretty well shot out. The 45 I carried was made before even my dad was born. But even though the slide sounded as though it was going to come off, never failed me. My first last and only experience with an issue 9, she stove piped after every third round and before I finished the magazine would jam to the point of having to take her in to have the armorer tear her apart. With only 30+ rounds through her she was taken out of service because the slides on the 9s of the day were blowing apart and injuring soldiers.

So I do tend to be a bit more 45 leaning in my recommendations. I also understand most new shooters probably start out with light calibers as the recoil and weight issues of the 45s tend to scare off many. But for dependability and use, the 45 is pretty hard to beat.

 

[Renault]

The Moros also twined primitive armor from vetetation that they wrapped themselves with that was pretty tough stuff. Not kevlar by any means, but it was known to stop or at least slow down many handgun projectiles.

I had a hunting pard, many years ago, who's grandfather lost his left arm at the elbow to a Moro's kris! He parried the blow with his Krag rifle, and the kris "skidded" down the stock and caught the inside of his left arm opposite the elbow. Like the old song said;

*"Where the bolo man goes running night and day".

Was a trail ambush! The Moro took a 220 grain full metal patch dead center the face from the soldier fighting next to pard's grand dad.

(* I'm sure some here may be familiar with the song)......

Renault

 

[Bob_Fixico]

No I am sorry to say I have not heard the song. I will probably never hear it because I have gone almost deaf over last few years.

Now for all service members and prior service like myself. We always fall back on our origional training. I have friends and neighbors who are active and prior service they stand behind the M9. In their words the M9 is simple easy weapon to use. They were trianed with it they know it. They look at a relic like myself with my relic 1911a1 out on the range. Oh that 1911 is a nice pistol to look at. Nice to fire is another phrase. They like the narrow profile compared to the M9. Now come the meat of this the break down of the 1911a1 is the problem too many pieces. It takes 120 seconds at longest to break down the 1911 and 45 seconds to put back together. Also they complain about the 7 or 8 round magazine compared to the M9 with its 15 round magazine.

My only answer is "Oh well to each his own" hehehe