$78K Zoot Suit

[HardBoiledMarlowe]

This is from two years ago but I just discovered it, so I'm sorry if it's been posted here before. I think it's pretty wonderful. At that price, I wonder if a museum purchased it.

http://www.augusta-auction.com/component/auctions/?view=lot&id=10437&auction_file_id=22

 

[herringbonekid]

it must have belonged to someone famous to fetch that price ?

 

[Guttersnipe]

It looks like a stage costume rather than a suit for street wear. Other than the distinctive cut, the real zoot suits I've seen over the years (by which I mean both original to the period and not obviously made for a musician/comedian/vaudevillian) have been otherwise conventional in construction techniques and materials. A very large proportion of zoot suit coats "started life" as regular suit coats, which were purchased in a larger, longer side and cut down. That is why, when you look at the photographic record, you see so many zooters with mismatched trousers and jackets.

 

[resortes805]

This is a stage suit, something that might have been seen in a production of Lil Abner. Ironically, a genuine zoot suit sold on the open market of ebay barely cracked $400+.

 

[redheads'n'truckbeds]

This is a stage suit, something that might have been seen in a production of Lil Abner. Ironically, a genuine zoot suit sold on the open market of ebay barely cracked $400+.

Do you have photos from that auction?? I'd love to see 'em!

 

[resortes805]

I have them somewhere; it was Marc C. that sold the suit and even dedicated a thread to it. However, all of his pictures are MIA.

 

[reetpleat]

I am not so sure. Remember, firstly, there are different types of zoot suits, more or less. One was custom tailored, the other were off the rack but made for that particular market. Some were made in the late 30s for mostly blacks, and were not much like what most people think of when they think of zoot suits. Single breasted, very trim waists, etc. then there were the type that were adopted by the kids and the Latinos, Filipinos, etc and then worn through the 40s and early 50s. I think that the later ones were often more of a gabardine, and often double breasted and baggier, while the early ones were often long but closely cut jackets and baggy pants.

The modern ones, even those supposedly patterned after the originals do not much resemble the ones you see in pictures.

Also, there were people that cut down big jackets, although there definitely were custom tailored and off the rack zoot suits.

Here is one example of what I consider the kind of real zoot suit that is an exagerated suit, in suiting fabric and construction, but not what people typically think of.

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/changing/helm/zoot2.html


Here is an example of what I consider a Latino, zoot suitish style, possible even a suit cut down. Although it could be as simple as a converted or custom tailored pair of pants, and dad's Sunday suit jacket. My special friend who is sitting beside me right now who used to do theater costume says it really looks like a large jacket that wascut down due to the sleeves being large.

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&h...nh=187&tbnw=218&start=12&ndsp=19&tx=115&ty=87

And, while we are at it. while the stripes run the wrong way, here is an interesting use of a probably similar suit fabric.

http://s799.photobucket.com/user/mabeekilroy/media/ZootSuits1943.jpg.html

Ultimately, my vote is real.

 

[herringbonekid]

Reetpleat, that last one is a bold check fabric; doesn't bare any resemblance to the fabric of the auction suit. here's a bigger photo:

zoot thread here:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/show...-see-that-drape-esse-authentic-zoot-suit-pics

 

[reetpleat]

Whoops Here it is. Edited post. http://s799.photobucket.com/user/mabeekilroy/media/ZootSuits1943.jpg.html

Speaking of that pic,Check out the shoes on that kid. I have heard that Latinos often did not always wear pointed toed shoes like the black guys on the east coast, but often wore heavy work shoes. Kind of a working class statement maybe, or maybe just a differing style. Great pic.

 

[Guttersnipe]

I am not so sure. Remember, firstly, there are different types of zoot suits, more or less . . . Ultimately, my vote is real.

I don't believe Resortes or myself are disputing that the $72k suit is authentic to the period. We're just making the point that it's not "real" in sense that it was made someone to wear it what amounted to a minstrel show. As such, it not something any self-respecting Harlem hep cat of Pachuco would have worn.

You're right that zoot suits came in many varieties. There were definite delineations of the style dictated by time, place, ethnicity, age, and socioeconomic status. For example, the add for off-the-rack zoots (complements of resortes) has them priced at $22.50, which was roughly comparable to prices at Penny's and Wards. That wasn't chump change, but it wasn't too pricey either. Whether or not teenager from the ghetto could afford that price at a time when a good union wage was ~85 cents per hour, I'm not sure. Although, I suspect the target consumer for these OTR suits were not teenagers, but rather single young working class Latino / African-American men looking for a "Saturday Night" suit.

I have definitely read of people have tailor make custom zoot suits in the 30s/40s, For example, Malcolm X (a zooter in his youth) makes a extensive description his extravagant wardrobe choice during that period of his life. But it's important to remember that, at that point, he was a pretty successful up and coming career criminal and hustler-about-town (burglar/pimp/drug dealer). As such, he could a the finer things in life.

One big difference between East and West Coast zooters is that, while Harlem was actually a economically diverse place (i.e., there were both rich and poor people), the majority of Latino kids involved in zoot culture came from very poor communities (I'm speaking specifically about the West Coast here). Additionally, both on the East and West coast, the vast majority of zooters were teenagers, who are notorious for not having money of their own. So, despite popular legend, the vast majority zoot suits were actually pretty "bargain basement" or homemade in their execution. More often than not, they were hand-me-downs or used items purchased from rag merchants, that were re-cut, often at home.

 

[Guttersnipe]

. . . Check out the shoes on that kid. I have heard that Latinos often did not always wear pointed toed shoes like the black guys on the east coast, but often wore heavy work shoes. Kind of a working class statement maybe, or maybe just a differing style . . .

This is definitely true. I've also heard first-hand source say that the chunky shoes were popular because they proved useful in a tussle!

 

[seabass]

[video=youtube;iy7ep9e6qNo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iy7ep9e6qNo[/video]
double soled chunky shoes & fingertip coats, (note pants called DRAPES are not too pegged)
& oh yea cute chicks !
mid 1950's so past the Zoot Suit Era & this is Mexico City Style
Tin Tan My Avatar sported nice Zoot Suits.

 

[reetpleat]

All good points. But firstly, a minor point, don't place too much weight on the distinction between teenagers and young men with a little money to spend. It is an illusion in the 30s and 40s. Many teen agers were working. So, to save up a bit for one sharp suit was not such a stretch. Not sure what the overall point in that distinction was anyway. But worth thinking about.

And, you, dear guttersnipe, living in SF, and Resortes and I, are surely aware of the more somber, less flashy nature of Latinos, which would inform the style of zoot suits worn, asin, darker colors, solids, etc. But, on the other hand, the east coast, black conception of the zoot suit, was a little different. Some were traditional fabrics in long cuts, but others were quite flashy. And I think it would be folly to assume that a young man would not have a custom zoot suit made in such patterns and fabrics. While it indeed might be a stage costume, I think it could easily be worn by a young man who wnated to be theatrical and flamboyant (In other words, zoot)

Obviously, we will never know. But I do not find it hard to imagine this suit worn by a black Harlem hipster. Although I do find it a stretch to imagine it worn by a Latino in LA.

 

[reetpleat]

However, this suit is both tradition tailoring, and traditional fabric. The form does not really allow one to appreciate how it would actually look on a man. And the fabric hsasd been turned sideways, and mismatched. But, they are both traditional fabric and construction. While some zoot suits were off the rack, tailoring was not out of reach of a kid who was working, maybe in a wartime factory, and did not have a lot of overhead. Let's face it. If you or I or a hundred others on this forum were not so cheap and used to bargain prices on vintage, we could easily save up for a $2000 custom tailored suit.

 

[Guttersnipe]

. . . don't place too much weight on the distinction between teenagers and young men with a little money to spend. It is an illusion in the 30s and 40s. Many teen agers were working. So, to save up a bit for one sharp suit was not such a stretch. Not sure what the overall point in that distinction was anyway. But worth thinking about.

Granted, many kids went to work in their mid, or even early teens. However, the earning power of a younger person just entering the workforce is always going to be less than an older, more experience worker -- irrespective of the time and specifics of a particular economy.

Obviously, we will never know. But I do not find it hard to imagine this suit worn by a black Harlem hipster. Although I do find it a stretch to imagine it worn by a Latino in LA.

And now back to zoot suits . . .

. . . I asked the FL version of Leon Trotsky about this suit. He says it could go either way. Apparently there was quite a thriving cottage industry of home-based tailors (with wildly varying levels of skill/quality) who made zoot suits from scratch, or cut down exiting garments.

 

[reetpleat]

Took me a minute to figure out what you meant. I think I get it. I would agree. It was made to look outrageous, and was made by a decent tailor to normal suit construction standards. But that would be true for either origin. Unless someone can verify provenance, I guess we will never know. I sure would like to see it on someone who fit it.

 

[resortes805]

. . . I asked the FL version of Leon Trotsky about this suit. He says it could go either way.

Haha, nice!

Yeah, alot of these kids were drop-outs (pushed-outs, if you ask me) and were working full time. The labor unions used to hold dances for teens since these guys were already working stiffs at age 16.

I always wondered about the chunky shoes. Double or tripled soled shoes always made the list of what made a pachuco look like a pachuco. The extra soles added a little bit of height, made the shoes last longer, and added a little extra kicking power in case somebody was looking for pedo.

Also, I am thinking about recreating the pants of this suit if I can find the right fabric. The horizontal stripes look rather unique, kind of a Tim Burton-esque look.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Hey cats! Dig the crazy horizontal stripes on my sleeves! I'm HEP!

 

[Samuel Pachuco Herrera]

This is from two years ago but I just discovered it, so I'm sorry if it's been posted here before. I think it's pretty wonderful. At that price, I wonder if a museum purchased it.

http://www.augusta-auction.com/component/auctions/?view=lot&id=10437&auction_file_id=22

That has got to be the ugliest Zoot Suit I've seen in my life! Who in their right minds would pay that much for it?:eeek:

 

[iggy]

The place to buy a one button roll or zoot suit in Chicago was FOX & FOX late fourties and early
fifties.Plus Maxwell street.