$500 for a pair of khakis? Here's why.

[MrBern]

A machine might make pants more cheaply, Mr. Sternberg said, but for a designer who wants to be known for quality, what would be the value in that?

Rregardless of how much of it is handmade, handsewn, machinemade, and machinesewn, its $54 of cloth thats assembled into a $110 Union-made garment.
All the markup after that...would probably be less if it were a Chinese business. Other business models seem to prefer less markup & more sales.
Butthis is intended to be a luxury garment, so theyre selling the prestige.
Which is why these sell out.

And BTW, there are some websites that sell to reenactors. Vintage style uniforms. Even when they come out poorly, they are sold and then the complaints roll it. Some of those sites have gone to China for new production. Its cheaper & more efficient and the reenactors, who would prefer MadeInAmerica, dont complain as much.

No, they said 'key details' were handmade. Like buttonholes. Didn't say anything about the stitching, and any supposedly handmade anything has machine stitching these days. It's a matter of where, and a matter of how much.

And machine stitching isn't actually bad- hand stitching just makes for better marketing. There are a few areas where it does matter, but khakis aren't one of them.

Also, they're adversing split waistbands as a justification for the price. It's not. You can buy $50 slacks with one. Doing those various things by hand doesn't improve quality any, it just drives up the labor cost so they can drag out articles like these to justify the price.

I will hand them the basting though. That's a real, honest to god added value. Not one I would feel is important on a pair of khakis, but it is something that does provide a legitimate benefit over your standard run of the mill pants.

No matter how they talk about it, there is very little difference from much cheaper pants. You're paying for the name.

 

[Tomasso]

A lot of people are shocked to find out that only about 3% of items sold in the US are made in China.

If you remove oil imports from the equation that percentage will rise substantially.

 

[Chainsaw]

I swear this is a stoodge fest or something. Why don't you guys go down to the fabric store pick out the nicest bolt of hering bone weave Khaki fabric for a couple hundred bucks. Then ask the broad behind the counter for the number of one of the seamstresses. Give her a pair of your favorite Khaki's and she can make like five pairs for a bolt of fabric.

And please don't call them Chinos or I'll slap you.

 

[Chainsaw]

Oh yeah shoot! I almost forgot, maybe it was made in China, but "China" was invnte in Europe.

 

[Tomasso]

I swear this is a stoodge fest or something. Why don't you guys go down to the fabric store pick out the nicest bolt of hering bone weave Khaki fabric for a couple hundred bucks. Then ask the broad behind the counter for the number of one of the seamstresses. Give her a pair of your favorite Khaki's and she can make like five pairs for a bolt of fabric.

How exactly is your post germane to this discussion of RTW trousers? [huh]


And BTW, have you any idea how much fabric is on a bolt?

 

[Chainsaw]

Well Tamasso I'm not a mind reader, how many yards have been cut from the bolt?

Depending, thirty yards, which would mean you could get maybe ten pairs.

I suppose we don't look for answers, we look for discussions. But that is neither here nor there, and I'm sure it ain't germane to the discussion.

 

[Tomasso]

Why do I have the feeling that you're not long for this joint.

 

[Paisley]

It sounds like those $550 pants cost so much to make because they are overengineered and inefficiently made.

 

[cptjeff]

Butthis is intended to be a luxury garment, so theyre selling the prestige.

And that's moronic. Luxury should mean higher quality, not decent to nice quality made more slowly, but identically. Paying top dollar for a suit from a tailor means you're getting top end fabric, amazing construction and personalized fit. The names of Savile Row tailors are prestigious becuase of the garments. With makers like the one in the article, the garments are prestigious because of the names. I'm of the opinion that the latter ordering is fundamentally wrong.

 

[Tailor Tom]

And that's moronic. Luxury should mean higher quality, not decent to nice quality made more slowly, but identically. Paying top dollar for a suit from a tailor means you're getting top end fabric, amazing construction and personalized fit. The names of Savile Row tailors are prestigious becuase of the garments. With makers like the one in the article, the garments are prestigious because of the names. I'm of the opinion that the latter ordering is fundamentally wrong.

They are producing higher quality with those Khakis, that is the main reason they are higher priced, along with the fabric. Just remember that you and others think of "Savile Row" and certain makers located there because of their name and location only.

 

[Tailor Tom]

I just have to...

Some of the statements on here totally degrading the cost and labor involved in manufacturing those trousers are just brought my hackles up. Talk about uninformed !

As a Tailor working in the custom industry for decades and having a huge retail experience as well, I have to weigh in.

1. I have made custom Khakis for clients (even I admit its not really practical though), and since I don’t go through middlemen, I can offer them at more reasonable rates to clients. They are still in the $200-300 range. But, I too would need a distribution network to increase sales, thus increasing the overall costs of the garments.

2. Yes, fabric actually costs that much, and sometimes much more, even for cotton. Can you find fabric cheaper? Yes you can, that particular designer chose not to. One of those reasons is that you need premium fabric to make a premium end product. And using common business formulas his margin would also be reduced as when using lesser fabrics, not making it worthwhile.

3. The article stated… “At Martin Greenfield, a union shop where employees earn about $13 an hour, before benefits, it takes an average of four hours of labor to make a pair of pants. The pants pass through the hands of at least 20 people in the process of cutting fabric, adding pockets and building out a fly. So with labor and fabric, the cost to make Mr. Sternberg’s pants was about $110 — a fifth of what they cost in a store.” And then went on to explain the mark-up policy. If anyone here knows of standard business model pricing, those figures were spot on. A shop (of any kind, not just clothing) typically doubles cost to come up with their wholesale cost of goods. These products are consigned to a distributor/representative who deals with marketing, sales and distribution, and he doubles his price. A normal mark-up of 2.5 is commonplace in retail stores.

4. Martin Greenfield actually pays much more than $13/hour out of pocket per employee than the article states due to benefits and the matching of tax deductions. So, his actual profit is much lower than the original math suggests.

5. They can make them in 4 hours due to that things are made on a production line basis. Depending on the pant details, my personal construction time varies from 4-10 hours as I do them 1 garment at a time.

6. Are you willing to work for $13/hour ? Doing repetitive tasks day-in/day-out ? Most people are not.

7. In the same NYT that very day was an article: ( http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/fashion/29GimletEye.html?emc=eta1 ) speaking about how the garment district has shrunk so much and why it is hard to find the qualified talent to produce the higher-end designer goods, and that they are being pushed out of the area by rising real estate prices and other things. And how the few remaining talented people are indeed coveted.

8. Martin Greenfield has to find and then keep the talent to make these garments. I know of a custom-house that actually travels to Europe routinely to find its talent. They set up auditions in a hotel and if they find someone qualified, they offer to move them and their family to the US and to sponsor them to the tune of $10,000 or more for each person. The talent is continually diminishing in this country and I rarely see US citizens stepping up to take these jobs. If a manufacturer were to pay someone say, $20/hour or be able to offer 100% medical or other high end benefits, his production costs would be so high that he would not be able to produce things at a reasonable cost at all.

I would hope that everyone starts thinking in much more reasonable terms as to what is involved and who is making their clothing.

 

[cptjeff]

They are producing higher quality with those Khakis, that is the main reason they are higher priced, along with the fabric. Just remember that you and others think of "Savile Row" and certain makers located there because of their name and location only.

Higher quality fabric and somewhat better construction, but not twice the price of what you charge for high quality bespoke worth.

I refuse to believe that a distribution network needs to take $300 of the cost of a pair of pants. If it cost $300 to get a pair of pants out to stores and stocked, then $40 pants would be rather impossible.

I guess I subscribe to the 'your costs plus a reasonable markup' theory of pricing. $250 or so for freight and the labor required to put them on a hangar is not really 'reasonable'. Imagine if UPS changed it's shipping charges based on the value of the item being shipped rather then what it costs them to ship it. That's what this is looking like to me.

 

[Tomasso]

If it cost $300 to get a pair of pants out to stores and stocked, then $40 pants would be rather impossible.

Not when they cost $10 to make.

 

[Richard Warren]

I could be wrong but I believe Chainsaw was trying to point out that he found the "explanation" of the cost of the pants in question to be incredible, and those who appeared to accept said "explanation" to be credulous. Hence his observation that many pairs of very high quality pants can be had for less money (while not necessarily proven) seems germane enough.

It seems to me that the explanation is likely true (or only modestly exaggerated) but does not really "explain" why the pants in question are in any material sense superior to cheaper pants, unless one believes categorically that "more expensive" = better. And if that were true one could just slap a $500 price tag on a pair of cheaply made pants and sell them to, well, a group that might unkindly be referred to as "stoodges" but would in fact be composed of relatively rich persons who are indifferent to how much they pay for a pair of pants mixed with less affluent status seekers (who of course we can all pity, right?).

Chainsaw also has an aversion to the word "Chinos" which I share.

 

[mattfink]

I can tell you from experience what it takes to have a pair of custom made pants. My tailor custom makes gabardine hollywood waist pants for me. They take about an hour to make. The fabric is about $40 and he charges me $100 - $125 depending on how many I have made. So about $140 - $160. Fabric for kahki pants is no where near as expensive as gabardine. He's basically making $100 to put together a pair of slacks. Not too shabby and not $450. Believe me, they are getting a nice huge discount on their fabric by buying several thousand yards at a time.

 

[Tailor Tom]

I can tell you from experience what it takes to have a pair of custom made pants. My tailor custom makes gabardine hollywood waist pants for me. They take about an hour to make. The fabric is about $40 and he charges me $100 - $125 depending on how many I have made. So about $140 - $160. Fabric for kahki pants is no where near as expensive as gabardine. He's basically making $100 to put together a pair of slacks. Not too shabby and not $450. Believe me, they are getting a nice huge discount on their fabric by buying several thousand yards at a time.

I find this hard to believe. I've been in the business and actually sewing for 25 years, and I can't make a pair of pants in an hour. If the tailor in question is able to do that..he should go national.

 

[Tailor Tom]

Higher quality fabric and somewhat better construction, but not twice the price of what you charge for high quality bespoke worth.

I refuse to believe that a distribution network needs to take $300 of the cost of a pair of pants. If it cost $300 to get a pair of pants out to stores and stocked, then $40 pants would be rather impossible.

I guess I subscribe to the 'your costs plus a reasonable markup' theory of pricing. $250 or so for freight and the labor required to put them on a hangar is not really 'reasonable'. Imagine if UPS changed it's shipping charges based on the value of the item being shipped rather then what it costs them to ship it. That's what this is looking like to me.

It is not a question of dollars, it is a formula based upon percentages. And like most industries, every time something changes hands, the price typically doubles. It happens in distribution in all forms all over the world. And it really holds true in the clothing industry. If you see a pair a of pants that costs $100 retail at the store. that store probably paid $40 for them from an importer. The importer paid $20 to the actual producer/sewing room company, and doubled his price (the common pricing structure) to sell them to the retailer. The Sewing Co. charged $20, but 50% of that was profit, so his actual production costs are in the order of $10. This is the only way that a retailer can then offer the same pants on sale for 30% off and still make money.
All of this is common business accounting 101.

 

[Phineas Lamour]

6. Are you willing to work for $13/hour ? Doing repetitive tasks day-in/day-out ? Most people are not.

Where I live most manufacturing jobs pay $8.00 an hour or less. People go to work at these jobs everyday. With the job market the way it is now a lot of people would be very happy to find a production job that pays $13.00 an hour. I don't make that much and my job is much more physical than sewing and includes repetitive tasks day in and day out.

 

[Creeping Past]

I would hope that everyone starts thinking in much more reasonable terms as to what is involved and who is making their clothing.

Yes. Hopefully, we're all buying clothes made by adults paid a fair wage for their location/professional experience/output, not clothes made by children or by adults working for their very lives.

This is not just airy idealism: it's possible to take control over what you buy. But your choices must surely be informed. See how much it costs locally.

1. How much does a good quality cotton twill cost per metre?
2. How much does a tailor in your home town charge for a pair of MTM/MTO cotton twill pants?

For me:

1. I don't know
2. Around £100

I reckon Mattfink's getting a good deal on 'local pants'. Then again, good quality clothing is very expensive in the UK.

 

[Tailor Tom]

Yes. Hopefully, we're all buying clothes made by adults paid a fair wage for their location/professional experience/output, not clothes made by children or by adults working for their very lives.

This is not just airy idealism: it's possible to take control over what you buy. But your choices must surely be informed. See how much it costs locally.

Bravo