20's, 30's, 40's fashion guide?

[Baron Kurtz]

Yowza!

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

Right, but what ever happened between 2 and 3? EBay or eh, booze?

 

[Justdog]

Zippers and Snaps

In the vein of 20, 30s and 40s clothes.

Can anyone shed light on when snaps and zippers came into use in mens pants. I saw a pair of vintage "30 or 40 pants" in a thrift store but was suspicious as the pants had a talon zipper and snap waist closure no belt loops no union label, custom made possibly?
Thanks

 

[George Anderson]

Hi Retrofashion

If you would like to see some 1940 event photo's and films try this link: www.1940's.info
I am George of the Anderson's we take photographs and films of most 1940's events in Yorkshire and the Midlands of England. Nice to see so many vehicles and re-enactors dressed in American uniforms. Most of our ladies clothes come from America. I had a Zoot Suit made at Jake Siegel's Clothing Superstore that came with all the trimmings.
My wife's father landed on Sword Beach on DDay with East Yorkshire Brigade B Coy. We attended the 60th Anniversary at Hermanville. It was great to see so many vehicles, tanks, landing crafts, Ducks and many more.
Hope you visit the site and see some of our events.

George

 

[Baron Kurtz]

American trousers.

In the vein of 20, 30s and 40s clothes.

Can anyone shed light on when snaps and zippers came into use in mens pants. I saw a pair of vintage "30 or 40 pants" in a thrift store but was suspicious as the pants had a talon zipper and snap waist closure no belt loops no union label, custom made possibly?
Thanks

I mostly see the snaps (I assume it/they was/were at the waistband?) on trousers from the late 1940s and early 1950s. They have, in my experience, been always associated with a zipper. The snaps were probably the "Gripper" brand, yes?

Zippers have been in men's trousers from the early 1930s. Don't believe the garbage you'll read online which tells you: "buttons before the war, zippers thereafter". Demonstrable HOGWASH! And yet still propagated by some of the more well-known vintage dealers (so that they can take an 80s bespoke number with button fly and pass it off as 40s. Charlatans!). Zipeer flys were very popular from the mid-late 1930s onwards when they were vying with the traditional button fly for men's hearts and minds. More common than buttons starting in the early-middle 1940s or so, or a bit earlier, when the shock and awe of the utility of zippers became apparent to the male mind. Until the 1950s the zippers were most commonly (though by no means uniformly) the rectangular pull with square cut-out Talon type. From the early 50s or a bit earlier you start seeing more Conmar and Scoville (even a Lee or two ) zippers appearing in men's trousers. Talon really had the edge due to an innovation they introduced which meant that the zip-pull would lie flat when zipped up. There was a little clip that could be engaged by simply pushing it, or disengaged to use the puller. So when you "zipped up" you would press the zip-pull towards your waist to lock it. When you needed to unzip you would first lever the zip-pull outwards then unzip. It's so simple, but the other companies took a long time to get with the program, and with Talon's aggressive marketing in magazines like Apparel Arts and Esquire they were left in the starting blocks.

Sans belt loops would suggest a custom number, and probably a "Hollywood" waist. I assume the trousers had suspender buttons?

Everything is pointing at the late 1940s for these trousers.

Union labels are only rarely found in trousers of the era. Especially if they were part of a suit.


None of this information is relevant to European trousers.

bk

 

[Justdog]

Surgicaly edited

I mostly see the snaps (I assume it/they was/were at the waistband?) on trousers from the late 1940s and early 1940s. They have, in my experience, been always associated with a zipper. The snaps were probably the "Gripper" brand, yes?

Yes that was the type of snap, yes associated with the zipper. Yes the zipper has been around for a while. Facinating having used a zipper this long and have it revealed the talon had a purpose, smile. Custom thats true, Non European thats true and good to. Consistent so far. Many thanks. I try to assimilate as much research as possible until oversaturated but with varying resources something resembling a chop of the truth becomes evident.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Was it the square-end Talon? Did it have a "V" etched into/behind the "TALON" on the pull? This appears on the earlier ones, but was apparently dropped by the late '40s.


bk

p.s. Also, Waldes zippers are seen more into the 1950s, too.

 

[Justdog]

Square

Was it the square-end Talon? Did it have a "V" etched into/behind the "TALON" on the pull? This appears on the earlier ones, but was apparently dropped by the late '40s.


bk

p.s. Also, Waldes zippers are seen more into the 1950s, too.

Bingo! Yes that is probably a very accurate identification and approximate dating, thanks for the help.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Well it's interesting. I was mistaken.

The Talon "V" doesn't appear on redcloud's zippers page. And i only have one example which is almost certainly middle 1940s. My 30s trousers with Talon zippers are the non-"V" type. So the Talon "V" may have been a short-lived variant on the standard square-end Talon?

Anyone else with a Talon "V"?

bk

[edit] Just went through all my trousers. I have 2 pairs with the Talon "V" zipper. Most of the rest have the standard square-and Talon. Both "V"-type date to the middle 1940s.

 

[Justdog]

Zippers and Snaps

Zipper Snaps
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/justdog/Suits/669a_1_sbl.jpg
And the lapels just for fun:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/justdog/Suits/779f_1_sbl.jpg

 

[Justdog]

The Talon "V"

Edited:

I just posted pics for your evaluation and threw in the lapels, silk? peaked?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Tuxedo.

I assume the trousers have a satin or grosgrain stripe down the side seam. It would appear to me to be a 4x1 button configuration DB tuxedo. The zipper appears to be the non "V" type, but i can't really see it. Zips are so hard to photograph. It's really annoying, i know.

This style of tuxedo was very popular in the UK through the 40s and 50s. Not so sure about the US popularity.

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

p.s. Spurred into action, i'll be doing a post on trousers zips in the zippers thread (http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=6076) later this week or at the weekend. This is dependent upon my getting good photographs.

bk

 

[Justdog]

Stripes

I assume the trousers have a satin or grosgrain stripe down the side seam. It would appear to me to be a 4x1 button configuration DB tuxedo. The zipper appears to be the non "V" type, but i can't really see it. Zips are so hard to photograph. It's really annoying, i know.

This style of tuxedo was very popular in the UK through the 40s and 50s. Not so sure about the US popularity.

bk

Yes 4 buttons, yes square zipper and yes stripes down the side.
What is the Hollywood waist? If this was custom it may not have that stlyle.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

It's somewhat moot as the trousers in the pic you show don't have a "Hollywood" waist. The "Hollywood" waist is constructed without a waistband. Commonly, though not always, combined with dropped (set down from the waist) belt loops. It's usually associated with the 1950s, though the waistband construction dates back much further.

bk

 

[Justdog]

Hollywood

It's somewhat moot as the trousers in the pic you show don't have a "Hollywood" waist. The "Hollywood" waist is constructed without a waistband. Commonly, though not always, combined with dropped (set down from the waist) belt loops. It's usually associated with the 1950s, though the waistband construction dates back much further.

bk

Yes I see I thought that meant the tappering of the jacket to get that V look but that look and cut goes into the 50 ala kirk douglas