1930s(?) Catalina Marlin Shirt

[HardBoiledMarlowe]

I thought these were from the 40s. He seems to be pushing it with the dating on this. Any thoughts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-1930S-CATALINA-MARLIN-SWORDFISH-BACK-PANEL-HAWAIIAN-SHIRT-L-XL-NR-/181064097372?pt=Vintage_Men_s_Clothing&hash=item2a2842de5c

 

[DamianM]

your right 40s not 30s

Dam those Hawaiians are pricey but hardly sell anyways

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I have one from the same line (don't worry, I didn't pay these prices!!) - the boat pulling waterski-ers instead of fishing - and I'd say it's from the 40s rather than the 30s, but I don't know how to tell for sure.

 

[kat-talk]

This is could be a late 30s or an early 40s model ... Really Rare, specially on large size!!!

 

[HardBoiledMarlowe]

Thanks for the input. All the "Catalina" shirts I've seen are from the 50s but I'm not sure if they were around before that. I just looked in Rin Tanaka's Hawaiian shirt book and this exact shirt is listed as 1950s.

 

[Guttersnipe]

With Hawaiian shirts, it can be tough to tell if they're from the 30s or 40s. The surest way to date Hawaiian shirts is with a broad knowledge of the specific prints, color combinations, labels, and printing techniques.

Some prints were one-off runs made while others were in production for several seasons/years, while yet others went into, out, and back into production. Also, since it was very much a cottage industry, sometimes patterns would sit on a bolt for years before being cut and made into garments (why pay for the labor to sew a garment until you know whether your shop needs shirts, dresses, shorts, etc., right?).

Complicating matters, some of the big names, like Kamehameha, Hale, and Shaheen manufactured exclusive prints for their respective collections then licensed them several years later, sometimes with some modification (minor change to the layout of the print, color combinations, ets.). Pali, for example, is very famous for licensing Hale's prints, but they are always subtly different combinations of several Hale designs. Other labels didn't manufacture any of the fabric used in their shirts, while there were some designs/printers who exclusively made textiles and never garments.

Silk was much more common with pre-war, but rayon shirts are seen pre and post-WWII. Printing was done completely by hand pre-war, and while manual printing techniques were replaced until the era of mass produced (made in Japan) 50s textiles, the methods for registering the various color layers became more sophisticated as time when on. That is why the subject matter of hawaiian prints became more realistic and their are more colors in mid 40s shirts, relative to 30s shirts. A tell tale sign of a 30s print is wider tolerances between the colors in the print (and also minor imperfections in the print, like one color overlapping another slightly).

Regarding this specific shirt. I'm not sure why Rin Tanaka identities it as 50s, because it's not. I've always seen it cited as a print that was in production several years before WWII. Also, worth noting is that, that eBay seller's personal collection is probably one of the best Hawaiian shirt collections in the world . . . Brian "Snappygabs" Cohen.

 

[Guttersnipe]

. . . another couple of points. The mainstream fashion was reflected in the cut of Hawaiian shirts, therefore, collar shapes typically reflect the prevailing trend with other sports wear items, like gabardine shirts for example. Another way this can be seen is in the drape/bagginess of the shirt. Hawaiian shirts from the 30s, 40s, and early 50s ran significantly larger than ones from the middle 50s and on.

Here's Frank Sinatra and Montgomery Clift showing off baggier cur of earlier shirts:

Elvis in 1961:

And here is an example of the rougher printing techniques indicative of 30s prints:

 

[HardBoiledMarlowe]

Guttersnipe,

Thanks for the additional information. I have a modest collection of Aloha shirts ranging from the 40s through the 70s and understand that the printing process, shirt styles, prints, and fabrics used changed over time.

I'm well aware of Brian both through his long-standing eBay presence and the numerous shirts from his collection featured in Tanaka's books. It would be a pleasure to meet him should I ever attend a show at which he was selling. It's hard to believe that Rin would identify the shirt in question as 50s if it was older, especially considering his connection to Brian. Could it have something to do with the particular Catalina label used?

Labels: http://vintagefashionguild.org/label-resource/catalina/

Note the second label in the left hand column. Tanaka's book indicates that this label is 40s or early 50s.

Also of note is the fact that the shirt was made on the mainland, a practice that, as far as I know, began during the late 40s. Shirts made from sharkskin material (including Catalina shirts with similar prints) are listed as 50s in the book "The Aloha Shirt: Spirit of the Islands."

Here's a link to the same Catalina marlin shirt listed as 50s by The Hana Shirt Co: http://www.thehanashirtco.com/product/Catalina_-_50s_BACK_PANEL_Fishing_Rayon_Vintage_Hawaiian_Shirt_RESERVED

Just to be clear, I'm not questioning the quality and vastness of Brian's collection, nor am I questioning your references that place this particular print being in production before WWII. I am mostly curious about how Brian is identifying this particular shirt (as produced by Catalina and using that label) as being a full two decades older than other references indicate.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

The labels would seem to nail it down, assuming that vfg has their info correct. The label on the eBay one above is the "A California Creator" type, apparently from the early 50s.

The info above, from guttersnipe, is correct that this line of shirts was in production earlier than that, though. I just dug out my Waterski-ers print Catalina shirt from this line, and it has the label below, apparently from the 40s.

 

[kat-talk]

Wow ... Lot of information !! Well done guys!!
That's a bit surprise that Tanaka marked as 50s, could a simple mistake or someone give the wrong information.
I'm checking now one of the Japanese book 'bout Hawaiians ( well more a mag called lighting ) exactly the same catalin shirt marked as 40s bit more info but in jp.


Regarding Brian probably best collection of Hawaiians and great 50s and ultra collectible 50s wear he is a great guy know him for over yrs and always a pleasure to do business with him

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Possibly the one in Tanaka's book is a later variant of the shirt. They seem to have been made over a relatively long time period, from the late 30s to the 50s.

It all seems to depend on the labels.

 

[Guttersnipe]

The labels would seem to nail it down, assuming that vfg has their info correct. The label on the eBay one above is the "A California Creator" type, apparently from the early 50s.

The info on the VFG label library always needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's hardly comprehensive and the members of the VFG are often much more knowledgable about women's wear than men's wear. For example, here is a 40s Catalina label, which took me all of 45 seconds to find, which isn't included in the VFG Label Resource Guide:

Also of note is the fact that the shirt was made on the mainland, a practice that, as far as I know, began during the late 40s. Shirts made from sharkskin material (including Catalina shirts with similar prints) are listed as 50s in the book "The Aloha Shirt: Spirit of the Islands."

Here's a link to the same Catalina marlin shirt listed as 50s by The Hana Shirt Co: http://www.thehanashirtco.com/product/Catalina_-_50s_BACK_PANEL_Fishing_Rayon_Vintage_Hawaiian_Shirt_RESERVED

Note that the label on the shirt from the Hana collection looks to be slightly different than the one which sold on eBay recently. Also, the one on the Hana site is noted to be a rayon gabardine, whereas the one from eBay and the one linked bellow are both a rayon woven similarly to linin. Over the years, I've seen the marlin shirt with label and construction variations, indicating it was in production for quite some time.

Dave from Hick Up Lounge / Emerald City Vintage (a very knowledgeable collector / dealer) cites the marlin shirt as a 40s design here.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Just out of interest, how do you know that the undershirt (?) above, upon which the label resides, is from the 1940s? It looks quite generic, from the collar style, and could have been made any time.

 

[Guttersnipe]

Just out of interest, how do you know that the undershirt (?) above, upon which the label resides, is from the 1940s? It looks quite generic, from the collar style, and could have been made any time.

It's from a stripy cabana pullover t-shirt / sweater.

With Catalina, there were so many label variations, primarily because they had tons of different lines (men's swimsuits, women's swimsuits, men's cabana/resort wear, women's cabana/resort wear, men's sport shirts / casual wear) you have to be really exact on the language and specific details.

The one that specifically reads "Custom Styled by Catalina ® a California Creation," with that exact style of flying fish, was used in the last few years of the 40s and first couple of the 50s. Much like the Jantzen diving girl, the Catalina flying fish changed subtly over the years, which can be very useful for dating items.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Re: the text. It's "A California Creator", right, not "Creation"? I have real persistent trouble with silly cursive script (exam papers from American undergrads are awful for me), but there's no "i" in the last word?

 

[Guttersnipe]

Correct. This vintage finds and deals forum doesn't allow edits ... Much to my annoyance.

 

[HardBoiledMarlowe]

Very interesting stuff here! You are correct that the VFG label resource is not comprehensive, especially regarding menswear. Tanaka does not cite them as a source in his book. I posted the link as a reference.

Is the late 40s label you show above from the shirt that Dave (HicupLounge) had for sale a couple of years ago? The ® symbol definitely places it after 1946, when the Lanham Act was signed (7-5-46), requiring all new Patent Office registrants to use the symbol. Companies granted a trademark after the signing of the act were given a grace period until July 1948 to use printed words. Companies that were issued a patent prior to 1946 were allowed to continue using "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off." on their labels.

These shots are from the book:

Also of interest is a 50s shirt from Brian's collection using the same label:

And two more Catalina shirts listed as late 50s in the book:

Listed as 40s on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-1940S-CATALINA-BORDER-PATTERN-HAWAIIAN-SHIRT-S-NR-/181056154165?nma=true&si=MO9um%252BqqvMZ20%252FGUjd51oRElT%252BE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Another Catalina Shirt with the same label listed as late 40s or early 50s. This one is from Tanaka's sixth "My Freedamn" book, which preceded the Hawaiian shirt book.

I've seen the same label used on numerous shirts that are clearly from the 50s. Based on the information above, we can surmise that this particular label variation was around in the late 40s through the 50s, but it's still unclear if it was used in the 30s. I suppose it's possible.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes! This is my shirt. Exactly. Same print, same label. It's made of very, very heavy rayon. Mine is a bit more washed out than this example and far paler than the bright yellow depicted here.

 

[HardBoiledMarlowe]

Yes! This is my shirt. Exactly. Same print, same label. It's made of very, very heavy rayon. Mine is a bit more washed out than this example and far paler than the bright yellow depicted here.

You're a lucky man, BK! It's a really cool shirt!

 

[Guttersnipe]

Very interesting stuff here! You are correct that the VFG label resource is not comprehensive, especially regarding menswear. Tanaka does not cite them as a source in his book. I posted the link as a reference.

Is the late 40s label you show above from the shirt that Dave (HicupLounge) had for sale a couple of years ago? The ® symbol definitely places it after 1946, when the Lanham Act was signed (7-5-46), requiring all new Patent Office registrants to use the symbol. Companies granted a trademark after the signing of the act were given a grace period until July 1948 to use printed words. Companies that were issued a patent prior to 1946 were allowed to continue using "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off." on their labels.

These shots are from the book:

Yeah, that label was from a late 40s sportswear pullover Dave sold a few years ago (had to go back through my browser history to find where I dug that one up . . . )

Very good info on ® symbol versus the "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off." verbiage. I had known there was a law enacted post-WWII, and that it included a grace period for transition, but I had never known the official name of the legislation exact dates. Thanks!

Here's the seldom seen reverse to the label above.