Choosing My First Fedora

[jlee562]

Thus far, every attempt I have made to find objective support for the proposition that superior vintage quality is categorically unreproducible has dissolved upon close examination. I remain entirely willing to consider evidence to the contrary.

Do you have a pre-war, mercury processed hat? Have you handled a 100+ year old Fray sweatband that is still supple?

If not, talk to me when you do.

The cheaper felts literally cannot be made as dense as those in the past.

 

[Frunobulax]

Wow, all these years I have been operating on the premise that the Lounge is a place for all things hat related: new, used, vintage and custom. Could other members chime in and tell me their thoughts? Am I so wrong on this point? Is this no longer the place for me as I don't collect vintage hats?

I have always understood the Fedora Lounge to be a site to discuss and appreciate the elements, style, and culture of the Golden Age. Not limited to hats or even clothing styles. As we all know, though hats are a big part of this forum, we have threads on cinema, literature, architecture, advertising, and much more. Certainly modernity is discussed, including current movies and TV shows, but the underlying current is still an appreciation of the Golden Age.

Collecting is a natural offshoot of that, but certainly not the main focus. I'd say you fit right in as a hatter who is well-versed in vintage styles, but not limited by them.

Correct.

While I think your previous posts regarding vintage hats are spot on, I disagree with you here, based on my statement to Robert, above.

 

[Judgmentalist]

Do you have a pre-war, mercury processed hat? Have you handled a 100+ year old Fray sweatband that is still supple?

If not, talk to me when you do.

The cheaper felts literally cannot be made as dense as those in the past.

Ah yes, anecdotal generalization, ad hominem and bare assertion—three of my favorite argumentative fallacies packed into one post. I applaud your economy of language.

In point of fact I’m not particularly interested in talking to you.

Whether I own one is irrelevant to the proposition. Personal experience may establish that a particular vintage felt is exceptionally good; it cannot establish that its properties are impossible to reproduce. “They literally cannot be made as dense” is exactly the claim for which I’m asking for objective support, not evidence for the claim.

 

[Frunobulax]

Do you have a pre-war, mercury processed hat? Have you handled a 100+ year old Fray sweatband that is still supple?

If not, talk to me when you do.

The cheaper felts literally cannot be made as dense as those in the past.

Yup. Love some of my modern and customs, but have yet to find a modern hat that can hold a candle to most of my vintage hats.

 

[ClementJames]

I love that we are "fighting" over hats. We need to find something more calm to talk about. May I suggest religion or politics? (This was supposed to make you smile)

 

[Frunobulax]

Ah yes, anecdotal generalization, ad hominem and bare assertion—three of my favorite argumentative fallacies packed into one post. I applaud your economy of language.

In point of fact I’m not particularly interested in talking to you.

Whether I own one is irrelevant to the proposition. Personal experience may establish that a particular vintage felt is exceptionally good; it cannot establish that its properties are impossible to reproduce. “They literally cannot be made as dense” is exactly the claim for which I’m asking for objective support, not evidence for the claim.

Personal experience means everything in this context. Some of us have handled hundreds of hats of various eras and that experience is valuable and informative. Dismissing it is a mistake on your part. Jerad's being a bit saucy here, but he's also right.

Perhaps, somewhere, given the equipment, time and effort, somebody somewhere could produce the kind of felts found in vintage hats, but that isn't happening. They would quickly go out of business due to the economic reality of trying to market them.

I'm not certain what kind of objective analysis you want, lab reports?

 

[jlee562]

Ah yes, anecdotal generalization, and hominem and bare assertion—three of my favorite argumentative fallacies packed into one post. I applaud your economy of language.

In point of fact I’m not particularly interested in talking to you.

Whether I own one is irrelevant to the proposition. Personal experience may establish that a particular vintage felt is exceptionally good; it cannot establish that its properties are impossible to reproduce. “They literally cannot be made as dense” is exactly the claim for which I’m asking for objective support, not evidence for the claim.

If we are comparing vintage to modern, it is absolutely relevant whether or not you have experienced handling, by your definition, the "finest documented examples from each period." How otherwise are we comparing? If you have no idea what the finest quality was like, how can you judge whether or not it has been replicated?

Mercury used during the carroting process produced micro-barbs on the fur fibers which allowed them to felt together tighter. When they switched to other chemicals during the carroting process, they were unable to reproduce the same density.

The objective evidence is in trade magazines like American Hatter. As this thread is about someone's first fedora and this is all a side track, no, I did not offer academic level citations.

 

[Frunobulax]

I love that we are "fighting" over hats. We need to find something more calm to talk about. May I suggest religion or politics? (This was supposed to make you smile)

You haven't read my paper, A Deconstruction of the Capitalist System's Effects on Minority Religions in the 1930s, a Gender Neutral Perspective?

It's in the university library in the row where undergraduates make out - right next to Ross Geller's dissertation.

 

[belfastboy]

You haven't read my paper, A Deconstruction of the Capitalist System's Effects on Minority Religions in the 1930s, a Gender Neutral Perspective?

It's in the university library in the row where undergraduates make out - right next to Ross Geller's dissertation.

Can I access it online? I question the assertion that it is gender neutral as you view the subject through a male gaze.

 

[jlee562]

From one of a handful of patents that came up from before the mercury ban:

For many years the so-called mercury carrot was the accepted standard carroting solution in the hatting indusry. Mercury carrot comprises mercury nitrate in an excess of nitric acid and it imparts several very desirable characteristics to the fur fibers. Fur so carroted improves with age and thus may be stored for substantial periods of time. Mercury carrot also seems to add a substantial amount of weight to the fur and fur so carroted is capable of taking a large amount of filler in the resultant felt. In spite of these advantages the mercury carrot is far from ideal. It has a definitely toxic effect which often seriously impairs the health of the laborers coming in contact with fur so carroted.

It discolors the fur, making the use of lighter pastel dye shades impossible. and it is expensive

Because of the shortcomings of the mercury carrot a great deal of effort has been expended, in an attempt to devise'a non-toxic carrot, preferably non-mercury, due to the above efiects of this element. This unusual activity has met with a fair degree of success in some cases and several non-mercury carrots have been devised which can be used with success in limited fields. Significantly, however, most of the fur used in felt manufacture is still carroted with the mercury carrot. In spite of its toxic effect and other disadvantages, it is still considered by many to be usually superior to the non-mercury carrots so far developed.

 

[belfastboy]

Personal experience means everything in this context. Some of us have handled hundreds of hats of various eras and that experience is valuable and informative. Dismissing it is a mistake on your part. Jerad's being a bit saucy here, but he's also right.

Perhaps, somewhere, given the equipment, time and effort, somebody somewhere could produce the find of felts found in vintage hats, but that isn't happening. They would quickly go out of business due to the economic reality of trying to market them.

I'm not certain what kind of objective analysis you want, lab reports?

For the record, I have never made any claim denigrating the quality and value of vintage hats. The jewels in the crown of my modest collection are vintage hats. My caution to the new in the hat world is not to dissuade them from entry into buying vintage but is directed to those that are looking to purchase their first hat (and perhaps only). They don't present as collectors but as newbies looking to purchase their first hat. I think at this point in their hat life, assuming little knowledge, purchasing new, purchasing economy lines such as Akubra, Magill (KTG) is a safer bet. They may well evolve into collectors but are best served entering into that forearmed with some knowledge. There was never any knock on vintage intended other than it can be a risky in terms of what you get for your money.

 

[Frunobulax]

Can I access it online? I question the assertion that it is gender neutral as you view the subject through a male gaze.

Touche!

And no. I'm old so it was never digitized. In fact, it's only available on Fortran punch cards.

 

[belfastboy]

Touche!

And no. I'm old so it was never digitized. In fact, it's only available on Fortran punch cards.

When I retired I booked an appointment with an academic advisor at my old university. My inquiry was related to going back for a Masters. I proudly showed her my transcript. She replied that most of the courses listed she had no idea what they were. The old course catalogues were not digitized nor on microfiche. But she took pity on me and said she would venture down into the basement where they kept boxes of old course catalogues and she would attempt to cross reference them to today's offerings. But she went on to say that likely the uni would not recogn1ze most of the courses listed on my transcript....."You realize, there is an entire body of knowledge that has developed over the 50 years since you were here that renders your transcript obsolete!!" In that moment I decided that returning to uni as a freshmen taking 100 level classes was just not gonna happen.

 

[jeffgarf]

Touche!

And no. I'm old so it was never digitized. In fact, it's only available on Fortran punch cards.

While I (for one), am never weighing in on the purpose of the forum we have here, as someone posting about vintage, modern, custom and the underrepresented, religious hats (modern and vintage), I do want to state, I am only here for the jokes.

 

[Gilded Age Guy]

I'm late to this party, and new to the FL, but I think it's a fair guess that the Original Poster is wondering, as I am, why anyone would pose an earnest question here looking for anything like objective, good-natured advice.

I feel that in parting--I will trouble no one further hereafter with my posts--I feel honor-bound to observe the very word 'vintage' is absurdly misused here and elsewhere. Let us take wine as only one example. What 'vintage' do you mean? What grapes? What grower? What winemaker? How was it stored? On and on. To characterize 'vintage' anything as a monolith (e.g., all 'vintage' felts are better than all 'modern' felts) is to take a very small sample of surviving old things--and a very limited understanding of, say, the chemistry behind carrotting and then make gross generalizations based on that tiny sample set and limited knowledge base. (One poster in this very thread claimed that mercury carrotting 'created' spurs or barbs on fur, which allowed it to felt. Not so. Barbs or spurs are a natural part of animal hair (and not of, say, cotton), and mercury sulfate or its modern equivalents only raise the barbs slightly to allow for easier/faster felting. To assert that the mercury carrotting process is inherently superior to modern treatments is to assume that all manufacturers across many millions of hats applied the mercury carrot in exactly the same way, in the same concentrations, for the same amount of time, and to the very same grades of fur prepared in the very same way. This is--at best--not knowledge but merely nostalgia, and neither chemistry or common sense.

Instead, we might instead observe that the very best 'vintage' hats are somehow different from modern ones, that some of the very best are very good indeed, and perhaps even in some aspects better than many or most of their modern counterparts. And we might ask ourselves why that may be, and to what extent. We might even go so far as to say that many older styles somehow move the soul in a different way from those of the modern era. But does that make them inherently better? No, it makes them different. We might ask, though, what is it about those styles that moves us? Why would that be? How do our modern perspectives color our conclusions?

In that vein, why is it stiff bowlers and straw boaters--by a wide margin the most common and once-plentiful styles of all 'vintage' hats, and for a much longer time period than the soft felts we nowadays revere (indeed, what most think of as 'vintage' hats, even though softs were made in far smaller total quantities than stiffs)--mostly inspire smirks from modern onlookers? Why, when 'vintage' people saw them as symbols of masculinity itself. What has changed?

And all of these questions we can and ought to discuss, as friends and with open minds. It is curiosity and the humility of investigation, not dogma, that make a hobby fun. All learning must begin with an admission of ignorance. Otherwise we'd all take up religion as a hobby and end up in wars about whose God or Gods is older, bigger, or better. Or, in secular terms, burn someone at the stake for having the temerity to assert that the Earth revolves around the Sun and not vice-versa.

Of of the countless hundreds of millions of hats made in America alone over the 'golden age' period, it may even be possible to consider that the heresy that the minuscule number of centenarian survivors likely represent the very best of their breed--the 'keepers' that people knew were wonderful and thus held onto and conserved. Like, say, a 1936 Cord versus a 2006 Camry. But does the reverence for the '36 Cord suggest that all 1936 cars are inherently better than their 2006 counterparts? In some ways, perhaps--again, the way they move the spirit or inspire an interest in the past. But in many others--like starting reliably when it's below freezing or getting your child to the pediatrician on time with 150,000 miles on the clock--not so much.

On a brief personal note, let me say only that while I am probably the newest former member of FL, I've been collecting and restoring hats for decades. I was head engineer of a major hat company. And I have handled at least as many 'vintage' hats as most anyone here; of that much I am quite confident. But even so I have to recognize and admit that my own experience is limited to a very small selection of hats made over a very long time and by a very large number of makers. Thus for me to generalize anything from my couple-hundred-strong personal collection, and even the thousands I've personally handled, would in my view erode, not enhance, my credibility.

I joined here because I thought I could contribute some of my personal experience to my fellow members, and that I could benefit from theirs. But as I've been scanning various threads over the past few days since I joined, it seems to me that all-too-many of them peter out after one of the Big Men On Campus lays down the law, with most other people either toeing the line or deciding it ain't worth the hassle to get into a scrap. Yuck.

Last but certainly not least, to those here (ref. 'big men on campus', previously) who will quite literally tell another member that he has no business on this forum because he does not share their particular opinion, I say: you owe that member, and everyone here, a sincere apology and a pledge to do better or go off and play by yourself. And to those of you who tolerate or even make apologies for such reprehensible conduct, you are only accelerating the ultimate decay of FL into a parody of a 'forum', and driving away 'new' voices who may, in fact, add a thing or two, even if you don't agree with it.

They say if you are to fail, fail quickly, and so I have. Hats (both 'vintage' and modern) have long been a glorious and fun part of my life's path--and after a week's detour, I'm looking forward to getting back on course.

 

[MaaikeVanDerVelde]

Reading this as someone who is still learning, I think the most useful answer is probably somewhere between the two camps.

Your first fedora does not need to be your finest or final hat. It needs to fit properly, work with the clothes you already wear, and feel natural enough that you will actually leave the house in it.

For casual clothes and jackets, I would begin with moderate proportions and a versatile colour such as medium grey, taupe, or fawn. Fur felt is probably the better long-term choice if the budget allows, but for a first purchase I would put fit and the possibility of returning it ahead of age, label, or reputation. Trying several hats in person would be ideal; otherwise, buy from someone who provides proper measurements rather than only the size printed on the label.

Vintage can be wonderful, and so can a well-made modern hat. The first hat’s job is not to settle that argument — it is to teach you what you enjoy wearing. After that, the second hat will probably choose itself.

 

[jlee562]

We can wax philosophical about what "vintage" means, but go pop in to the the German and Austrian thread, check out a few seal velours, then float that theory that there's nothing that can't be reproduced with modern techniques.

 

[belfastboy]

Reading this as someone who is still learning, I think the most useful answer is probably somewhere between the two camps.

Your first fedora does not need to be your finest or final hat. It needs to fit properly, work with the clothes you already wear, and feel natural enough that you will actually leave the house in it.

For casual clothes and jackets, I would begin with moderate proportions and a versatile colour such as medium grey, taupe, or fawn. Fur felt is probably the better long-term choice if the budget allows, but for a first purchase I would put fit and the possibility of returning it ahead of age, label, or reputation. Trying several hats in person would be ideal; otherwise, buy from someone who provides proper measurements rather than only the size printed on the label.

Vintage can be wonderful, and so can a well-made modern hat. The first hat’s job is not to settle that argument — it is to teach you what you enjoy wearing. After that, the second hat will probably choose itself.

Well said.

 

[GHT]

Wow, all these years I have been operating on the premise that the Lounge is a place for all things hat related: new, used, vintage and custom. Could other members chime in and tell me their thoughts? Am I so wrong on this point? Is this no longer the place for me as I don't collect vintage hats?

Well actually there is quite a following for the wearing of leather jackets. I doubt though that the jackets discussed on various threads resemble anything like the wide lapel version in the above photo.

 

[bozak]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I didn’t expect there to be quite so much to consider with a first fedora, especially when it comes to sizing and choosing between new and vintage.

I’m definitely going to take my time before buying anything. The advice about trying different styles and getting the size right first makes a lot of sense. I really appreciate everyone sharing their experience.