What Hatco COULD produce with modern materials and different blocks

[Joshbru3]

This is a project that I had been contemplating for quite some time. I wanted to show what Hatco could produce with their modern materials but different blocks and hatting techniques. I had been searching for the perfect new hat to use for this project and after quite the long search, I settled on the Dobbs Maxima. I had originally thought that the Maxima was made in Hatco's Garland Texas plant but after some VERY helpful info from Besdor, I found out that Hatco commissioned the Maxima to be made by Tonak. Even though the hat was made by Tonak, Hatco still had to design and approve the crown shape, brim size, materials used, etc. I truly believe that Hatco is very capable of making this hat as long as they import the Velour bodies from Tonak. Either way, its still a Hatco marketed product, so it still applies for this project.

That being said, I chose the Dobbs Maxima because it had a wide 2 7/8 inch brim which would allow me plenty of brim size in order to raise the crown height. I loved that the hat had a velour good looking velour finish which is not all that common from modern manufactures. I also loved that the sweatband was very plain and was a solid color along with the fact that the liner was of a higher quality material than so many modern day Hatco products. I wanted this hat to look like a hat that would have been made in the 20's/30's/40's but still retain all of the factory components used in modern times.


This is a 7 part post, so please bare with me.


I received the hat in a Dobbs hatbox which was very nice because every time that I have bought a newly manufactured hat, it has always come in a generic box.

Here's the hat fresh out of the box with a VERY short and tapered crown. (Wait till you see how ugly the open crown profile is...)

 

[Joshbru3]

Part two....


With the brim snapped down, it really made the crown quite a bit shorter looking and wasn't a good looking profile at all...

The internal components of the hat were not as bad as I had originally thought they would be. The sweatband is that same composite material that's used on so many modern day hats, but it has a nice shine to it and is pliable like leather. I like that the only stamping on the sweatband is "100% Fur Felt" and it doesn't have that gold line that circles the sweatband. The liner is a totally different story however. The liner is made of a beautiful silky material that is very reminiscent of the liners that Dobbs used in the 40's and 50's. Its not silk, but its a much finer material than many of the Hatco liners used today. The size tag is made of a material rather than paper so it will last for a very long time. The sweatband seam stitching and stitching that attached the bow/ribbon was all real thread (cotton or polyester) verses that horrible clear plastic stuff often used by Hatco in Texas. The hat had a date stamp of 6/6/2006, so this was obviously new old stock.

 

[Joshbru3]

Part 3..........

After steaming the crown open, I finally saw what I was working with and let me tell you, the profile was horribly round and tapered......Check these pics out

The crown measured about 5 3/8 at the highest point but like I said was EXTREMELY round and unappealing. It was time to make the transformation.....

The first thing I did was take all the components off the hat down to the felt body....

 

[Joshbru3]

Part 4......



Then I had to choose a block. I chose to go with a 5 7/8 inch tall block that was slightly rounder on top than other blocks that I own. This block closely resembles crown profiles used on many vintage Austrian/German velours that I have owned and seen. Many of the Austrian/German velours that I have owned had slight taper just on the very top of the hat, so when a center dent was used, the crown would crease down perfectly straight and square. I wanted this same effect with this hat.

Now it was time to re-block the hat. I steamed the velour body for about 10 minutes just to make sure that all the shellac had relaxed and the body was very pliable. With the original crown height at 5 3/8 tapered and the original brim width at 2 7/8, in order to raise the crown up to 5 7/8, I needed to use about 1/2 an inch of brim width. The reblocking process took about 30 minutes of pulling, steaming, and stretching. I didn't want to over stretch the body and rip a hole in any place that was originally sewn. I also took my time to actually stretch the crown down a bit more so I could thin out the crown felt just a bit. Originally the crown was too thick and just didn't hold a crease quite like I liked it too. After the crown had been tied off with a rope, I checked to see that the block was still level under the hat. After everything checked out, I gave the crown just a little more pulling/stretching and was actually able to yield a 2 5/8 inch brim with a 5 7/8 inch crown. Essentially I was able to stretch the body ever so slightly longer so I could maintain a slightly wider brim while thinning out the crown a bit.


Here's the body on the new block before I ironed the brim...

 

[Joshbru3]

Part 5.......

The next step was to re-create the brim break and iron the brim flat. It is SO VERY IMPORTANT to create a very nice brim break, otherwise the hat looks more like a Cloche' than a fedora. I used a cotton cloth as a buffer between the felt and the iron. Because this hat was already finished and didn't need further sanding, I didn't want to scorch the hairs on the felt. A a little spray of water and the cloth was just enough protection against the heat. With the block still in the hat, I used the irons edge to create that sharp 90 degree break from the brim and the crown. After the break was set, I put the cloth over the crown and ironed it for about 10 minutes. Because I created a new crown shape, I didn't want the felt the start shrinking back to its original shape once the block was removed. By ironing the crown on the block, I was effectively "shrinking" the felt to the shape of the new block and maintaining the shape. This is a VERY important step in any re-blocking. I also took a curved hat brush, steamed the brim break, and used the hat brush edge to further set the break.

Here's the hat after the new break was set, the brim was ironed, and the new crown shape was set.....

The next step was to flange the brim. I wanted a very flat flange with almost no curvature. I used a flange that was meant for a 3 inch brim, but since my hats brim only measured 2 5/8, I was able to only use the flattest part of the flange for a flat flange shape.

Here's the hat in the flange before being ironed......

Here's the hat in the flange stand after being ironed. I let the hat cool for about 10-15 minutes in order to let the shellac reactivate in the brim.

and here's the hat freshly flanged. As you can see, the brim is very flat, but that's the effect I wanted. Its hard to see but there is a slight curl at the edge of the brim.

 

[Joshbru3]

Part 6........

The next step was to sew everything back into the hat. Interestingly, originally the sweatband was not sewn into the hat using the reed tape like almost every modern day Hatco hat is. It was actually sewn through the very front of the sweatband between the reed and the leather. I copied this way exactly. I first used 8 basting stitches to hold the sweatband band in place so I could sew it in the hat without it moving. The basting stitches were important because I was able to set the sweatband depth first and then go around and secure it into the hat. I did not use a stitch-awl for this because there was room for it. Because the thread went between the reed and the leather, I used use a needle and thread.

Here's the hat with the sweatband sen back in....

The next step was to sew the ribbon and bow back on. I used the factory ribbon and bow which proved to be interesting. I am used to using vintage ribbon which is a cotton/rayon mix. This new polyester stuff is hard to work with and doesn't want to curve to the hats crown as easily as the old stuff. I was able to reattach it, but it took a bit more time than usual. I also used the EXACT same holes as the factory did the reattach the ribbon. I would usually hide the stitches on the bow and such, but I wanted to rebuild this hat as if Hatco built it originally. Modern day factories don't really hide stitches, they are just in the open. Which personally I don't really mind. Not all vintage hats have hidden stitches either. As an added vintage touch, I opened the bow up in the back and frayed the edges. I left the right side longer than the left because this was a vintage technique that I saw on a vintage derby of mine from the 1920's and I really liked it.

And NOW the final pics of the hat creased. This project was spread over 2 days. In total I probably had about 7-8 hours of work into this hat (A good chunk of that was getting that sweatband back in). The quality of the velour body is not even close to some of the amazing vintage Austrian/German velours that I have seen and owned, but that being said, this modern velour body is still an excellent piece of felt. Its soft, smooth, holds shape, and has a great sheen to it. What more could you ask for in a velour.

 

[Joshbru3]

Part 7.........

Truly the reason that I bought a new hat, took it apart, and redid it was to prove a point. These materials are all modern day materials. They are not as good as the vintage stuff but that doesn't mean that Hatco can't produce a hat like this. This hat looks vintage and has a great profile to it. There's no reason that they shouldn't produce a hat like this, because I guarantee that they would sell every single one. Thanks for letting me share this great experience with all of you.

 

[Rudie]

Great job, Josh!

Now the question is, why don't they make hats with a profile like this anymore and instead try to sell abominations like the hat before its conversion?

 

[JonnyO]

WOW. Fantastic work Josh, quite an amazing difference! :eusa_clap

 

[Chasseur]

Wow! What a difference. I would actually buy a hat like that (in the end), where I'd pass up the hat how it came out of the factory.

 

[rlk]

Part 7.........
Truly the reason that I bought a new hat, took it apart, and redid it was to prove a point. These materials are all modern day materials. They are not as good as the vintage stuff but that doesn't mean that Hatco can't produce a hat like this. This hat looks vintage and has a great profile to it. There's no reason that they shouldn't produce a hat like this, because I guarantee that they would sell every single one. Thanks for letting me share this great experience with all of you.

How many do you think that is?

Hatco and Optimo experience(Very few tall straight crowns sell) would indicate a rather limited market and an investment in multiple complete sets of blocks in all sizes and marketing...
Although the general hat wearing population is much smaller than in Vintage times, the majority are more style concerned rather than having any association with Vintage appearance. I have no illusions that my tastes necessarily appeal to the general population(nor do I care).

 

[mikespens]

Great job Josh, if only Hatco or any other modern makers would see the point. Hopefully one of the execs see your thread and have half an ounce of sense. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[Joshbru3]

How many do you think that is?

Hatco and Optimo experience(Very few tall straight crowns sell) would indicate a rather limited market and an investment in multiple complete sets of blocks in all sizes and marketing...

I couldn't give exact sales figures, but honestly I feel that if more tall crowns (anything 5 1/2 and over) and wider brims were sold and carried in a wider array of retail stores, more people would most definitively buy them. I think one of the biggest problems with hat sales is the fact that almost anyone that walks into a hat store, or a store like a Macy's has absolutely no choice but to buy hats with short tapered crowns. Even people buying wool hats at places like target and Walmart have no choice but to buy crappy stingy brims and short crowns. If they were put in stores, more people would buy them. The average consumer will not search out and find the tallest crown they can online except for us lounge members. Likewise the average person won't spend upwards of 700-800 dollars on a velour from Optimo. I am not for one minute saying that this Dobbs velour body is anywhere near the quality of an Optimo body, but I'm saying that at a $120 price point, there would be more people interested in a product like this from run of the mill retail stores. Bottom line, if these type of taller crowned hats are not offered to people in actual retail stores, there can be no hope of people knowing about them and/or buying them.

 

[Joshbru3]

Great job, Josh!

Now the question is, why don't they make hats with a profile like this anymore and instead try to sell abominations like the hat before its conversion?

WOW. Fantastic work Josh, quite an amazing difference! :eusa_clap

Wow! What a difference. I would actually buy a hat like that (in the end), where I'd pass up the hat how it came out of the factory.

Great job Josh, if only Hatco or any other modern makers would see the point. Hopefully one of the execs see your thread and have half an ounce of sense. I'm not holding my breath though.

Thank you very much, Gentlemen!!! Even if Hatco never produces a hat like this, its always nice to know that for less than $150 you can buy your own factory hat, take it apart, and redo it. I guess its kind of like hot rods, many people want something more than whats put out of the factory, so they customize their cars to their personal likings.

 

[rlk]

Even Optimo sells few hats of these dimensions--customers are looking for quality not generally a taller straighter crown(Both according to Graham and observation at Optimo Events). As always you will sell more of what you show--styles have to be ever changing to maintain continuous sales. The proportions now lumped into "Vintage" varied over time for this reason. Perhaps your favorite dimensions could be marketed and become one of those "new" passing trends. Your Crown Block wasn't being used after WW2 while hats still sold in large quantities. The FL perspective is rather unusual.

 

[Rabbit]

Thank you for posting this piece of work of yours, Josh!

I couldn't give exact sales figures, but honestly I feel that if more tall crowns (anything 5 1/2 and over) and wider brims were sold and carried in a wider array of retail stores, more people would most definitively buy them. I think one of the biggest problems with hat sales is the fact that almost anyone that walks into a hat store, or a store like a Macy's has absolutely no choice but to buy hats with short tapered crowns. Even people buying wool hats at places like target and Walmart have no choice but to buy crappy stingy brims and short crowns. If they were put in stores, more people would buy them. The average consumer will not search out and find the tallest crown they can online except for us lounge members. Likewise the average person won't spend upwards of 700-800 dollars on a velour from Optimo. I am not for one minute saying that this Dobbs velour body is anywhere near the quality of an Optimo body, but I'm saying that at a $120 price point, there would be more people interested in a product like this from run of the mill retail stores. Bottom line, if these type of taller crowned hats are not offered to people in actual retail stores, there can be no hope of people knowing about them and/or buying them.

I totally agree. It's the same old song with suitings. If a prospective customer wants to have a suit made from decent materials other than super-number worsteds, and with a proper construction, he has to go out and actively look for the necessary ingredients himself.
Accessibility is a big factor in sale strategies, on every level. Trivial as this may sound, it is not.

On the other hand, I also agree with Robert's point about the FL perspective on crown shapes representing a minority.

 

[Blackthorn]

Wow!

 

[Joshbru3]

Even Optimo sells few hats of these dimensions--customers are looking for quality not generally a taller straighter crown(Both according to Graham and observation at Optimo Events). As always you will sell more of what you show--styles have to be ever changing to maintain continuous sales. The proportions now lumped into "Vintage" varied over time for this reason. Perhaps your favorite dimensions could be marketed and become one of those "new" passing trends. Your Crown Block wasn't being used after WW2 while hats still sold in large quantities. The FL perspective is rather unusual.

On the other hand, I also agree with Robert's point about the FL perspective on crown shapes representing a minority.

I completely agree with Roberts perspective as well because its completely valid. Our opinion on the FL is very biased when it comes to how a hat should look. Many of us have a preference for straight/tall crowns and we specifically search out to find and wear just those types of hats. Styles are continuously changing but if you look at crown styles, they have not really changed since the late 50's/early 60's. Even through the 70's/80's/90's when wider brims were still sold, crowns were still fairly short and tapered (in dress hats, NOT the urban cowboy look because my Resistol Stagecoaches are from the 70’s and they have 6 1/4 open crowns.). Since the introduction of the 1960's Stingy, I feel that hat companies have kept that same basis for their hats. If you look at style trends today (I don’t follow them at all, just know of them) most hat styles sold to young people today are the stingy brimmed, low crowned fedoras. They are popular because that's what the hat companies make and thats what the fashion magazines put in their ads. Shows like Mad Men reinforce those short crowned styles for the general public. However, movies like “Public Enemies” and shows like “Boardwalk Empire” are VERY popular and seem to have grabbed the attention of many people. I see double breasted suits coming back into fashion, 3 piece suits, and various other vintage styles coming back into play. Fashion is cyclical and styles come and go. I think if offered, the proportions that I favor may become a passing trend and may possibly fall by the wayside like many other fashion trends in history. Basically my point is that a specific hat doesn't have to be a hat companies best seller to make money, its can still be profitable even if its their average selling hat. And when styles come back to support that hat, the company already has them stocked and ready to sell.

Though the 5 1/2 inch “51” style crown was extremely popular in the years after WW2 until about 1954, Hat Corporation of American still produced higher level hat (15, 20, 40, 100, etc) designations with fuller and taller crowns. Through my research of Hat Corp of America crown profile numbers, the most prevalent crown height that I’ve seen from hats from the mid 40’s-early 50’s was 5 5/8 only to be followed by 5 3/4. These crowns were still full and sold open. Thought they were not as square as many of the crown shapes from pre-WW2, they still have height and fullness. They most likely were not the “best” seller, but they were still offered to people who could appreciate those crown shapes.

 

[RBH]

Fine job Josh!
I knew it would turn out good, your work is fantastic.
Most of the current hats made now could be made better by the simple use of a different block.
Just look at the reblock Rocky did on my milan Stratoliner.
And your work on this is the proof in the pudding.

Well done!

 

[mayserwegener]

Great job, Josh!

Now the question is, why don't they make hats with a profile like this anymore and instead try to sell abominations like the hat before its conversion?

TONAK still has the blocks and flanges from the days of JHS. They make what their customers / market demands. I was working with TONAK to produce a Velour hat based on the dimensions of my 1930s JHS Sigma but it would have required 30 pieces.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?8207-Stetson-in-the-modern-day&p=1555675&viewfull=1#post1555675