Vintage Forgery on ebay

[tmitchell59]

I had just been talking with another member here about this jacket. I was fooled and I own several California Sportswear garments. Plus I recall the history of the jacket going back to it not even making a $100 opening bid on it's first running. I bid early, but lacked interest for some reason. It would not be a fit for me and I have a lot of half belts. I don't recall what price dinnerman paid. I did see him sell it also. Just never thought a leather jacket would be subject of a Fraud.

The quote below is from dinnerman on a Facebook post.

Be safe out there. A jacket I sold back in November (which has since been re-sold by a dealer in Italy and by one in Colorado) is now up for sale by a dealer in New York. Since the Colorado sale, a Californian label (a much more desirable brand) has been added by someone and it is currently being sold as such. Despite the Ponyhorse label remaining in the jacket, not many are familiar with that small brand and probably have mistaken it for a content label, it has already doubled its value, on its way to tripling by the time the auction is over. Do your research, buy from trustworthy dealers and watch out for fakes like this. http://www.ebay.com/itm/332185221185

 

[Monitor]

Is it an inferior jacket?

 

[Carlos840]

Is it an inferior jacket?

That's not the point really, it isn't what it is sold as, inferior or not.

 

[Jägernaut]

I saw that one and thought that it was very odd that a california jacket would have what I assumed was a pony hide label where the brand label usually is. And I've never seen the brand label where it is located on this jacket.

 

[Monitor]

That's not the point really, it isn't what it is sold as, inferior or not.

I know, I am genuinely asking.

This is a theft alright, there's no debating that but at the same time, the fact that this auction has 10 bids is very... alarming. That's 10 people who don't really have a first clue what they're bidding on and more importantly, why they're bidding on it. Suddenly, after one million years, the brand name Californian became sought after. . . But the fact that the frauds can really pass these fakes off as genuine jackets throws a whole different perspective on the whole matter. It's obvious that much education is needed. You can't rely simply on a tag to tell one leather jacket from another so... I'm genuinely interested what makes a true Californian vintage more desirable than this jacket which is also clearly vintage and possibly from the same time period.

What are you getting robbed off by buying this one? What do you think you're getting robbed off? Is it really worth it?

 

[ton312]

I don't know the pony-horse brand but with 5 hours to go I've got my popcorn out waiting to see what it'll go for. What's it worth TM?
It looks like a stellar vintage jacket. Really no need to flub it's maker...
The lining looks to be a replacement as well...is it that Bruce Willis movie that has people going all in on this jacket?

 

[HPA Rep]

I believe the seller is Victor Kerpel from NYC. The jacket is awesome and it appears to be my size, but I don't wear vintage or used jackets (hygiene issues from others) and it's very close to my ELMC Californian that I have no need to worry about aging zip tape tearing away on.

I am another who had no idea that this label added any substantive value. I can see that it was added by what appears hand sewing meant to duplicate machine sewing, and it also was sewn with thread that doesn't match the color and type of that used anywhere else on the jacket, which is always a good indicator of something being wrong, though not conclusive on its own.

As this jacket sits, label aside, I'd certainly pay the same price for this as a gently worn, new, vintage-style jacket in equal condition. But if the label is really added post production, which seems to be the case, then that is indeed fraud even if the jacket brings just one dollar more due to this.

 

[nick123]

Here's a real one that has some similar "ponyness"

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1950s...3A9b7a6b9815b0a99bb2d7d551ffff59b7%7Ciid%3A24

 

[tmitchell59]

Here's a real one that has some similar "ponyness"

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1950s-Californian-Pony-Hide-Leather-Belted-Jacket-Horsehide-Sz-42-/162473030021?hash=item25d425b185:g:c~AAAOSwU8hY75GT&_trkparms=pageci%3A719215c3-283b-11e7-9348-74dbd180bf38%7Cparentrq%3A9b7a6b9815b0a99bb2d7d551ffff59b7%7Ciid%3A24

Interesting. I have this same jacket with no labels, light lining as the bottom of the ebay jacket. Also has a belt. The ebay jackets looks to have a removable collar? Mine is at least a 42 or 44. I can wear it. My jacket has an earlier wartime zipper.

I do like the California Sportswear label. I think their labeled jackets are quality. I do have a Californian label that is not at the neck. They did move them around.

I don't think I have the original ebay sale save or it is too old, but it did not even get an opening bid and I recall it was less than $100. I looked and looked, but the smaller size just kept me away.

 

[HPA Rep]

The lining looks to be a replacement as well...is it that Bruce Willis movie that has people going all in on this jacket?

Ton, what makes you think the lining was replaced??? There's nothing I can see to indicate this (all thread seems identical and no telltale signs of removal and replacement) and it's in a condition consistent with the exterior.

I think this jacket sold rather cheaply considering what a current repro would bring on the secondary market in this condition. Though I do suspect label tampering and I confess ignorance to the market for vintage civilian jackets and related values, I fail to see what any label tampering gained anyone for their effort.

 

[photo2u]

I did bid on this jacket in two different auctions. I was the second highest bidder in this particular one. I also was very close to win the jacket when listed by the Italian dealer. In the past, there have been several nice half belt type with the Californian label. I wonder if those other jackets were the real deal? I just want to say thanks to the OP for let us know.

 

[Monitor]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1940s-half-...neyhorse-jacket-excl-condt-sz-40/332192903661

...the plot thickens.

 

[ton312]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1940s-half-...neyhorse-jacket-excl-condt-sz-40/332192903661

...the plot thickens.

Indeed it does! Me thinks the seller was the high bidder...or old aunt Agnes threw up a bid to help a nephew out!

 

[ton312]

Ton, what makes you think the lining was replaced??? There's nothing I can see to indicate this (all thread seems identical and no telltale signs of removal and replacement) and it's in a condition consistent with the exterior.

I think this jacket sold rather cheaply considering what a current repro would bring on the secondary market in this condition. Though I do suspect label tampering and I confess ignorance to the market for vintage civilian jackets and related values, I fail to see what any label tampering gained anyone for their effort.

Just looked too crisp and new to me. Not certain...the pony horse label looks to me as if it's been reattached as well.

 

[Guppy]

Back when I still had my Buco pants for sale, several people approached me on ebay, inquiring about if I would sell them just the label tag, for a lot less than I was asking for the pants themselves.

I told them, more politely than I ought to have, that they could buy the label if they wanted, but that it came with the pants, and at my full price.

I knew what they were up to, and would have none of it.

 

[HPA Rep]

Just looked too crisp and new to me. Not certain...the pony horse label looks to me as if it's been reattached as well.

Thanks for the reply, Ton. I still see nothing at all inconsistent with the lining, and the thread the "pony" label is sewn with is a perfect match to that which assembled the jacket, unlike the thread on the Californian label. Labels would be attached as either part of the overall assembly using the same thread or they would be the work of a finisher who could be on a machine using totally different thread, but as I noted already, this label has been hand sewn in a way so as to attempt to duplicate machine sewing using different thread from the jacket's assembly thread and the thread used on the "pony" label and this is not how factory work was done.

I've seen better attempts at fraud on higher-dollar items, where the labels were first sewn on a machine apart from the cap or jacket, etc. to create a border of stitching that will appear to be the original factory machine sewing, then the label was glued to the item. This type of fraudulent label attachment is more sophisticated and usually is reserved for goods of high value, though matching the thread is still a problem, especially under magnification, and the labels rarely will sit correctly because they aren't sewn down, though they can be very convincing to a fast glance and/or an untrained eye.

Seeing in person is everything, of course, but as a natural skeptic and wary detective for anything remotely out of place due to my early roots in collecting Third Reich artifacts, where one missed detail can cost you or someone else thousands of dollars, I only find this Californian label to have a stink about it.

 

[HPA Rep]

So can anyone answer the question as to what extra value the Californian label added to this item? Fraud still seems apparent by someone, but the jacket itself should be worth more than what it sold for.

I'd love to see this jacket and the label in person. Does anyone have a genuine Californian label of this exact type to compare with?

I'm wondering if the label is genuine vs. repro. The vintage labels would almost certainly be cotton or a cotton-and-rayon blend, or even all rayon, whereas repro labels, as far as I have seen over the last decades, will not be cotton no matter who is offering these because label makers today don't want to touch cotton-weave labels due to the erratic, unpredictable nature of cotton in the weave (you'd be paying some massive bucks to get cotton-weave labels made on vintage shuttle looms if you could even convince a label maker to do the work and accept the ridiculous minimums they'd require). Also, unless someone found some NOS labels, a vintage label would have telltale stitch holes that the fraudster would never be able to fully remove even if they soaked it for weeks in water and dried it with a hairdryer (and this would yield a label that would shrink to dimensions smaller than comparative, vintage labels).

If this isn't a vintage label, I'll bet it's not cotton and not rayon, thus contains some amount of plastic and plastic just looks different and won't stand up to high scrutiny or a wee bit of burning on an edge (not needed if you know what you're looking at).

 

[tmitchell59]

This jacket is from the 30s

40s

40s

 

[HPA Rep]

This jacket is from the 30s
40s

Thank you, tmitchell59! Can you provide a better, closer shot of the bottom label so that the stitching is more visible and in focus for enlargement? There's something unusual with this stitching from what I can see right now and I'd like to blow it up and compare to the suspect jacket from Ebay and others.

Thank you!

 

[HPA Rep]

40s

I very, very strongly suspect this label is replaced and hand sewn to replicate machine stitching! In fact, I'm 99.9% positive based only on this photo. It appears there are stains on the lining fabric that run under the label; if this is true, then I need know nothing else because the only way stains got under this label is for the original label to have been removed and the jacket worn without the label in place, thus gaining the stains where a label now resides (a new label was added at some later date).