Vintage felt

[myronw]

Hi Guys,

I apologize for posting information about the vintage hat bodies that have become available under the wrong thread. Logic should have told me that it would look like I was trying to hijack a thread mentioning one supplier, by posting a reply about another supplier.

I assure you that I wasn't trying to imply that there is anything wrong with Optimo's felt. I just thought that those of you who really preferred vintage felt, but couldn't find just the right hat in your size, might be interested in a source for an old, vintage body that could be finished to your specifications by whichever hatter you prefer. The felt isn't Charlies... He's just the one who was able to find some of it for sale.

For any of you who missed the other post; I was just informing all of you that Charlie Swindall at the Gladhatter had received a few of the vintage bodies that I mentioned he was sending for in an earlier post. He hasn't hat a chance to finish a hat from one of them, so there's no way of knowing how they will turn out. They are the old, authentic, mercury processed felt, though, and should turn out some really nice fedoras! Once he's finished a hat or two from it, he'll decide whether to persue getting more. If you are interested, contact him.

Let me just add that I appreciate the time and effort that goes into keeping a forum like this going, and I apologize once again for not thinking before posting.

Thanks,

Myron

 

[Matt Deckard]

No problem, your post was moved to the classifieds section because it was off topic and should have been the starter to a new thread.

As for you... have you recieved your GH hats yet? I'm waiting for you to post your thoughts, and if you get a chance some pics of you wearing the hats.

GH stepped on the reputation of any hatmaker or hat company that was brought up on this forum whether he had seen their work or not. He was banned for many reasons so it is a bit unnerving when a person shows up only commenting on him and his works and not much else.

I want you to know he is not welcome back.

Feel free to show off your hats and share your excitement and experiences with felt.

Knowing that the hats you ordered from GH are your first custom hats, I'm curious. What made you decide on GH?

did you consider anyone else before you made your decision?
Have you ever owned vintage hats before?

 

[myronw]

Hi guys

I posted a longer answer to Matt's questions in a Private Message... For those others of you who might be interested, I have received all three of the hats that I posted about earlier. As I said when I posted about the first one, I am overwhelmed by the quality of the felt and the workmanship on the hats. They are much nicer than any hat I ever expected to see, let alone own.

I do not own a digital camera, and do not intend to purchase one, thus the links that I posted of the hats before I bought them. I do not care to brag about the things I have, I only posted thinking that there might be some interest.

I did my research before I bought the hats. Having never owned a fedora, I first spoke to Art, who had blocked two of my Panama hats for me. I contacted two local hatters, but one of them didn't seem to even know what a fedora was, and the other one kind of specializes in cowboy hats. He said he could make me a fedora, but that he was familiar with the Gladhatter hats and Charlie could make me as fine a hat as anyone. I did not contact Optimo, because I thought that $400 was an insane amount to spend on any hat.

I originally decided to have Charlie make me a 250X grade hat, which was significantly cheaper than the Optimo. Then I came into some unexpected funds and Charlie offered to upgrade me to the higher quality felt. Once I saw, and FELT the quality of the hat, I realized that there was more of a difference in hats than I had ever dreamed. The weather here is still nice, so I'm still wearing a Panama hat; but I have worn each of the felt hats and they all fit like a glove, and just the creamy texture of the brim as you snap it down while putting in on brings a smile to my face every time!

I know that Charlie is a pariah around here, and hesitated to even post anything about my hats; but a couple other guys had taken the leap and posted their experiences with the higher quality hats, so I decided you might be interested in mine. Charlie has been nothing but the best to deal with. He has always delivered when he said he would, even though I told him I was in no hurry whatsoever, and he has never run down any of the other hatters or hat suppliers in any of the private conversations I have had with him.

I hope this helps clear up any misunderstandings that might remain, but if any of you would like to speak to me on the phone, feel free to PM me for my numbers. And above all...

Keep smiling,

Myron Williams
250 West Second North
Rigby, Idaho 83442

 

[Matt Deckard]

How about your new felt bodies for your online shop?
How would they compare?

 

[Michaelson]

This does beg a question from me regarding 'vintage' hat bodies......is there a 'shelf life' to old felt? I know there are some hats that have been around for generations...but considering it's just animal hair, is there a yard stick that a hatter goes by that determines when a felt it still good for a working hat, or past it's prime? I'm just curious, as I know from what I've read that the GH vintage bodies are supposed to be from a stash put away in the 1920's. Regards. Michaelson

 

[Fedora]

How about your new felt bodies for your online shop?

Thanks for asking. I have seen only swatches. The 80/20 rabbit/nutria looks like the rabbit of Optimo, the Nutria looks like Winchester pure beaver, and I have not seen the pure beaver yet. I am on pins and needle, and anxious to see what Argentina can provide in the beaver since that is my personal choice. The good thing about my hats, is you get alot for the money. I cannot in good conscience charge the going rate. Heck, I am making a killing the way it is. But I am used to 30 per cent margins in the cabinet business. I am getting death threats already from other hatters. LOL They all say I will have to increase my prices to make any money. Of course, the money deal is not why I am doing it. It is still a hobby with me, and something I really enjoy doing. If you love what you are doing, work is not involved. I do it for the love of the Indy fedora. On that vintage felt, it was made in 1928, so it is mercury made felt. I am waiting on one of the brown bodies, so I can examine it. Since, I love vintage felt, and these are just the raw bodies, I may buy a few and make hats from them, that is if, I can afford the price. I figure they will be expensive, but I have a few folks who want one as bad as me, so I may bite the bullet , just one last time. These are dress bodies, but no one knows what sort of blend, or pure felt that they are. It is hard to tell until they are pounced out. It is my understanding that they were produced in Dansbury. I am anxious to see one. regards, Fedora

 

[Michaelson]

Thanks for the info! I didn't even think about them being mercury felts. That does make a BIG difference! High regards. Michaelson

 

[Nathan Flowers]

Having priced bodies, I can tell you, Optimo has around 30 bucks in the body(his finest body), at the most, with the rabbit blends being bought for 7 to 15.

So this means that hats from Akubra and Peters Brothers are probably only 2 or 3 dollar hats? If that's the case, then that's quite a markup as well.

The way I see it is there's going to be a fair amount markup. Graham has a shop in Chicago (high real estate costs, high state and local taxes, high insurance), and he has 3 girls working in the shop (salary, workers comp, benefits). I don't think he's getting rich.

I look forward to seeing what your hats from the online shop will look like. Could you make a Homburg or Bowler for me?

 

[Fedora]

So this means that hats from Akubra and Peters Brothers are probably only 2 or 3 dollar hats? If that's the case, then that's quite a markup as well.

I don't know about the Akubras, since they don't produce for anyone but themselves, but I would imagine the PB bodies cost around 18 or 20 bucks, from an American felter. American felts get more for their bodies than the overseas connections.

The way I see it is there's going to be a fair amount markup. Graham has a shop in Chicago (high real estate costs, high state and local taxes, high insurance), and he has 3 girls working in the shop (salary, workers comp, benefits). I don't think he's getting rich.

Yeah, in order for a hat business to be your livelyhood, there must be an astronomical markup. PB has much less of a markup than Optimo. The costs would be similiar, so you be the judge on that. PB sells a rabbit body for 185, Optimo sells one, with a less pricey felt(not quality, but price), for 400. Quite a bit of difference. There is no doubt in my mind, that old Mr. Peters could make a hat just as good, if he used the imported dress bodies.

I am afraid, I will only offer the Indy fedora, since that is my passion. I could care less about other hats. Art will be the one for the other hats as he has the blocks, etc to do it. And with Art, you get a big bang for the buck. He and I are from the same school on pricing. regards, Fedora

 

[K.D. Lightner]

I have a question: some of you mentioned the older hats were mercury made felt. It would seem these fur felts were superior to what is around today.

What was that process like; when and why did it stop using it?
Was there a health issue or ...?

Thanks,

karol

 

[rick5150]

Some background.
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-mad2.htm
Mad as a hatter...

Few people who use the phrase today realise that there’s a story of human suffering behind it; the term actually derives from an early industrial occupational disease. Felt hats were once very popular in North America and Europe; an example is the top hat. The best sorts were made from beaver fur, but cheaper ones used furs such as rabbit instead.

A complicated set of processes was needed to turn the fur into a finished hat. With the cheaper sorts of fur, an early step was to brush a solution of a mercury compound—usually mercurous nitrate—on to the fur to roughen the fibres and make them mat more easily, a process called carroting because it made the fur turn orange.

Beaver fur had natural serrated edges that made this unnecessary, one reason why it was preferred, but the cost and scarcity of beaver meant that other furs had to be used.
Whatever the source of the fur, the fibres were then shaved off the skin and turned into felt; this was later immersed in a boiling acid solution to thicken and harden it. Finishing processes included steaming the hat to shape and ironing it. In all these steps, hatters working in poorly ventilated workshops would breathe in the mercury compounds and accumulate the metal in their bodies.

We now know that mercury is a cumulative poison that causes kidney and brain damage. Physical symptoms include trembling (known at the time as hatter’s shakes), loosening of teeth, loss of co-ordination, and slurred speech; mental ones include irritability, loss of memory, depression, anxiety, and other personality changes. This was called mad hatter syndrome.
It’s been a very long time since mercury was used in making hats, and now all that remains is a relic phrase that links to a nasty period in manufacturing history. But mad hatter syndrome remains common as a description of the symptoms of mercury poisoning.

 

[Fedora]

Beaver fur had natural serrated edges that made this unnecessary, one reason why it was preferred, but the cost and scarcity of beaver meant that other furs had to be used.

This one point is missed by many modern hat wearers. Beaver was always the preferred fur of choice in making felt bodies. To this day, the price of some hats is determined as to how much beaver content is included in the blend. And, also why beaver bodies are expensive, relatively speaking to other bodies. You find this out, when you anti up for your body bill, like I just did. Fedora

 

[gcollins]

What a great thread and discussion by all!

Fedora, what do you think the western hatters pay for those high end, silky soft yet western stiff 100% beaver bodies from the famous company in portugal? The ones used for custom western hats. I've heard about $300.

Thanks!
G

 

[Andykev]

Originally posted by Fedora


Yeah, in order for a hat business to be your livelyhood, there must be an astronomical markup. PB has much less of a markup than Optimo. The costs would be similiar, so you be the judge on that. PB sells a rabbit body for 185, Optimo sells one, with a less pricey felt(not quality, but price), for 400. Quite a bit of difference. There is no doubt in my mind, that old Mr. Peters could make a hat just as good, if he used the imported dress bodies.

I a

You say they "sell a hat body for 400". Sorry, but that price includes full trim, blocking, shaping, binding, sweatband, liner, finishing, and shipping with a sturdy quality box.


Peter Brothers..I have seen their WESTERN quality heavy felts. Yes they are well worth the price, and are a nice durable hat. I wish I had found them early on.

Optimo sells a much higher quality hat that rivals the vintage hats. And you pay for it because Optimo makes probably between 6 and 8 hats per day. How many does PB make in a day?

 

[Andykev]

"My point is, the Optimo hat is basically a hat, produced, using mass production equipment, with some hand finishing thrown in. His forte is the fitting, but you only get that on the walk in trade. Now, the thing is, whether you use the mass production equipment, or do it by hand, it does not matter, until you get to the finishing. For a course felt, you really need the lath where you can mechanically pounce the felt, but for a fine felt, the only way to do it is by hand. Since the old custom hatters, did not sell course felt, i.e. cheap felt, they had no use for the mechanical pouncer. All pouncing was done my hand, and this is very time consuming, but you can't beat the hand finish when a skilled hand is doing it. Fedora"

I have to totally disagree with you! Optimo uses machinery to enhance the hand made hat. Just like the woodworker who used the lathe as you point out. He gets a more uniform and custom procuct. Like when you made cabinets...you used good tools to make precision cuts, and quality assemblies.

YOU DIDN'T TRY IT LIKE THE GUY ON PBS...THE WOODRIGHT SHOP. This guy uses ONLY hand tools from 100 years ago.

Optimo uses machinery to more uniformly produce a quality product.

He can't afford to run to the kitchen sink. He has to run a business. Produce enough to be profitable, but not sacrafice quality.

 

[Andykev]

I will EAT MY HAT

" Take one of Charlies finest hats, place it next to an Optimo, and then have someone who has seen neither,(but knows hats) choose the most expensive and finest looking one. I know which one he will grab."

Well, I have about 15 Optimo's, and there are several people on this board that have more than me, some less.

I accept the challenge. Send one of Charlie's gem's to Art's shop (hell I will pay the shipping). I will also safely return it.

I will then compare it to my collection, and to the 500-800+ vintage hats Art has in his shop, or the ones Art is currently producing. Even send one of yours! I have seen and held the PB's , the Akubra's, and the Optimos, as well as Stetson, Cavanagh, Dunlap, Knox, Lee, Porter, Dobbs, Christy, Borsalino......


I don't think you will know what someone will grab. Take his finest? How about the regular hat he can sell to a customer on a daily basis? I bet ANY hatter can whip out their primo hand made sanded for hours la de la de la......

My point? HIS finest, what cost? Can I get 10 for the same price? Optimo can do it.. Heck,they made over 80 hats for "Road to Predition".

Has Charlie made any hats for film?

I will detail digitally photograph any hat you send, and do an HONEST side by side comparison, just like a movie or restaurant review. Unbiased. Oh, can I be, having love of Optimo? You bet. If a better hat came along, I'd be there. This is my passion, my hobby. My sickness.

If I am wrong, I will "EAT MY HAT"

 

[Andykev]

Originally posted by Fedora


I am sure me spilling the beans will really hack some hatters off, if they read it. If they have to get those high prices in order to keep hats going, fine. I just wanted everyone to know about the shuck and jive, so you go into it without being delusional about the rarity, or cost of the materials. What one hatter can get, any hatter can get, if he has the money to buy the minimums. regards, Fedora

Ohooooooooooo! You and Panama Bob have now walked the plank together!

Him for straw and you for felt!

 

[fedoralover]

Well I must say, this has been one of the most educational threads about fedora's that I've read in a very long time. Keep em coming.

One thing I will add that hasn't been mentioned yet in all this. That is the initial cost of all the hat making equipment. To be a fully operational shop requires that one have a whole lota blocks in all sizes and shapes. In talking with several people who are in the hat business, the price of hat making equipment is very, very high. One has to take that into consideration for the hatter who is trying to pay his bills and also pay off the loans on his costs for all that equipment.

fedoralover


I'm still sticking to ebay.

 

[Fedora]

Kevin, I knew my post would strike a nerve. I am afraid, that I would worry about your objectivity. There is no way in this world that you would ever pick a hat made my you know who over Optimo, even if it slapped you in the face. That is not intended to be an insult, promise. Your ardor just is the tip off.
You want to compare the beaver hat to your vintage hats too? I don't recall bringing the vintage into the equation. Have your ever seen a belly beaver hat from this guy? Well, I have, and I have seen the Optimos too. It would be like sitting an Akubra next to the Optimo. It is a far superior felt, period. And, the craftmanship is on par with Optimo. Now, I do not have a hat to send. The hat that I own, I made myself, and I do not claim to be as good as Optimo, but, I will be there shortly. Like I said, it ain't rocket science. The main difference between his hats and Optimo, is that his hats are actually worth the price paid. I have always called a spade a spade. While it may seem that I am trashing Optimo, let us be clear. I think he makes a fine hat, but at the same time, I feel he overprices his hats. You know, a hatter that I talked to recently, out west, told me he sells a 12000.00 hat. Who would buy such a hat I asked? Oh, people with more dollars than sense he tells me. Look, he said, people are funny critters. You take a man who is a millionaire and he wants to buy a hat. Do you think he wants what everyone else is wearing? No, he wants the most expensive hat made, and will gladly pay the price. Of course the hat comes with a gold band on it, and it is a pure beaver, and only the highest quality materials are used. So, he buys the hat. If you took the gold band off, it would be worth 500 bucks. But, he thinks he is getting something special. So, I see Optimo as doing the same thing, and there is nothing wrong with it, as long as you realize that you are buying a 30 dollar hat, and paying 400 for it. If you want to do so, and it makes you happy, it is your money. Or, you could buy the best felt available, modern felt that is, and feel a bit better about how your money was spent. Fedora

 

[Fedora]

[

Ohooooooooooo! You and Panama Bob have now walked the plank together!

LOL Yeah, I know. I may end up dead because of it too. I hope you will investigate it AK and bring the %#@# to justice. Just don't forget our debate here. If I am found with a suicide note, don't believe it for one minute! Have a good weekend fellers, I am going to bed. regards, Fedora