Varieties of overcoat...

[Edward]

Ok, I'm slowly learning about terminiology here. I now know the difference between an overcoat and a top coat, and what a thre quarter length coat is. I also think I can tell a chesterfield and a grounds coat. But I'm lost when it comes to some other terms I've discovered - in particular, Crombie and Ulster. I think Crombie was originally a brand?

 

[Hal]

I think Crombie was originally a brand?

Crombie is a brand, and the firm has a website which you can visit.
Crombie used to be, as far as I remember, a brand of cloth, not a brand of clothing which it is today. Crombie cloth is/was used by many reputable makers to make smart winter overcoats. The name is often mistakenly used to indicate a style of overcoat - single-breasted with set-in sleeves, sometimes with a button-through-front, less often with a fly-front, in plain charcoal, navy or black to wear over a business suit - a fairly formal type of coat. These coats may or may not be made of Crombie cloth.

 

[Hal]

An afterthought to yesterday's posting

I had forgotten to say that an Ulster is a heavyweight double-breasted and belted overcoat, most used for winter travel by train (and perhaps boat) when air travel was comparatively rare and expensive. (Some are shown in the Vintage Overcoats pictures thread). Many would say that such a style is very old-fashioned, but I find it very comfortable and satisfying to wear even in the comparatively mild British winter.

 

[AlanC]

Edward, if you can track down a copy of Roetzel's excellent book Gentlemen he has an excellent spread that surveys the different types of coats. The book is well worth the price for the pictures, and can often be had fairly inexpensively.

Here are a couple of my favorites, here in Laurence Fellows illlustrations.

The polo coat, on the left, double-breasted in camel hair, covert coat, right:

The covert coat, a light weight coat made of covert cloth (I also like them with velvet collar):

Here with velvet collar:

And a bad picture of mine:

See this thread for more on covert coats.

 

[Edward]

Thanks, guys... It's a bit of a steep learning curve some of this, but I'm enjoying it. I'm one of those folks who doesn't feel it's enough to know just that it's an "overcoat" - I like to know exactly what these styles are are. I find it intersting - plus as I slowly replace my wardrobe with classic styles (it'll be over the next decade, I'm sure!), it's always useful to learn as much as I can about what it is I want - no expensive "mistakes"!

Hal - an Ulster basically sounds - to put it crudely - like a heavy overcoat in a style not too far from a belted trench?

Alan - thanks for the tip on the book, I'll be tracknig that down. It seems to be that it's very easy to find reading material on period military wear, but less so when it coems to civilian garb. I'll get that one added to my Amazon wish list before santa comes asking again this year.

 

[Tomasso]

I'm one of those folks who doesn't feel it's enough to know just that it's an "overcoat" - I like to know exactly what these styles are are. I find it intersting

Then you really should take advantage of your close proximity to Savile Row. There you can find examples of the various styles and talk to some knowledgeable people. I've found most folks there quite affable and willing to chat as long as they're not busy with a paying customer.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Ulster Overcoat

1888 Men's Ulster Overcoat

In the model, this ulster was made of heavy cheviot in mixed brown striping.

http://www.agelesspatterns.com/images/1270.gif

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

Thanks, guys... It's a bit of a steep learning curve some of this, but I'm enjoying it. I'm one of those folks who doesn't feel it's enough to know just that it's an "overcoat" - I like to know exactly what these styles are are. I find it intersting - plus as I slowly replace my wardrobe with classic styles (it'll be over the next decade, I'm sure!), it's always useful to learn as much as I can about what it is I want - no expensive "mistakes"!

Hal - an Ulster basically sounds - to put it crudely - like a heavy overcoat in a style not too far from a belted trench?
<Snip>

Edward,

Just to note that people in the US and UK often call the same style of coat by different names and vice versa.

By the way, I once saw a man wearing a trench. He was buried up to his neck in an accident on a building site. It's a trench coat, surely?

Alan

 

[Edward]

Edward,

Just to note that people in the US and UK often call the same style of coat by different names and vice versa.

Good point.... I drove myself round the bend at one point trying to figure out what the difference between an ascot and a cravat was.... before I realised an ascot is just what they over there called them! :eusa_doh:

By the way, I once saw a man wearing a trench. He was buried up to his neck in an accident on a building site. It's a trench coat, surely?
Alan

Touche! lol

1888 Men's Ulster Overcoat

In the model, this ulster was made of heavy cheviot in mixed brown striping.

http://www.agelesspatterns.com/images/1270.gif

bk

Looks like it was a nice coat!

Then you really should take advantage of your close proximity to Savile Row. There you can find examples of the various styles and talk to some knowledgeable people. I've found most folks there quite affable and willing to chat as long as they're not busy with a paying customer.

Good idea, I might have a nosey round there at some point.

 

[Hal]

Hal - an Ulster basically sounds - to put it crudely - like a heavy overcoat in a style not too far from a belted trench?

A 20th-century ulster looks like the polo coat in Alan C.'s first picture except that it has notch lapels and an all-round belt, so it does resemble a belted trench coat without epaulettes and stormflaps.
The 1888 illustration shows a different style - perhaps the use of the name changed.

 

[AlanC]

Here is my polo coat, but note the collar, which I understand is an 'Ulster' collar:

Now like a polo coat should, mine has a half-belt on the back. Polo coats can also have peak lapels of course. I would assume that the primary difference between a polo coat and an Ulster coat like you are speaking of is that an Ulster has the wrap-around belt and always has an Ulster collar--would that be correct?

 

[Hal]

...my polo coat...note the collar, which I understand is an 'Ulster' collar:
I would assume that the primary difference between a polo coat and an Ulster coat like you are speaking of is that an Ulster has the wrap-around belt and always has an Ulster collar--would that be correct?

Yes indeed! Thank you for gently pointing out my use of a wrong term.
It is difficult to tell how heavy your pictured polo coat is; certainly an Ulster is always heavy and thick, and few (if any) will have been made in the UK since the early 1950s.
The 1888 coat shown in Baron Kurtz's picture intrigues me - presumably terminology varies with both time and place.

 

[Edward]

It's amazing how subtle some of the variations are (and how much cross over there seems to be)... from what I can make out, the only real distinction between a Chesterfield and a Covert is the rows of stitiching on the cuffs / tail of the covert which were originally intended to allow it to be cut to length without the expense of a tailor or fraying..... plus, presumably, the (original pattern, I know a lot of repros don't have them) inner lunch pockets weren't on a Chesterfield?

I've seen double breasted, notched lapel coats which otherwise conform to the Chesterfield design - would they be a db Chesterfield, or are they properly a polo adopting some chesterfield touches?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

i've never understood what "Ulster" referred to. I've been intrigued since first reading about Watson going out "wrapped in my Ulster coat against the London elements".

Flusser says:

"Double-breasted long overcoat in heavy melton or tweedwith big convertible collar, wide lapels, and a half- or all-around belt. It was introduced by a Belfast firm in the 1860. [hence, Ulster] By the turn of the century, English fashion dictated that no man could be well dressed without at least one Ulster in his wardrobe"

bk

 

[Micawber]

In my experience present day off the peg covert coats tend to fairly lightweight.

Stitch detail from mine which came from Cordings..

 

[AlanC]

My polo coat is pretty heavy, although it might not match traditional British overcoating weight. It's vintage, but I'm not sure how old, 40-50 years old, I'd guess. I bought it at thrift for $20.

According to Bruce Boyer's book Elegance, this is the definition of a polo coat:

And the requirements of the genre are explicit and strict: an authentic polo coat is double-breasted, full-length, and full-cut camelhair cloth; it has patch pockets, set-in sleeves, cuffs, and a half-belt.

It's amazing how subtle some of the variations are (and how much cross over there seems to be)... from what I can make out, the only real distinction between a Chesterfield and a Covert is the rows of stitiching on the cuffs / tail of the covert which were originally intended to allow it to be cut to length without the expense of a tailor or fraying..... plus, presumably, the (original pattern, I know a lot of repros don't have them) inner lunch pockets weren't on a Chesterfield?

A proper covert coat must be made of covert cloth, which is fairly lightweight. They generally are some variation of tan, usually single-breasted, and have the sleeve stitching you noted. They began as country/sporting coats meant for riding through the covert.

Chesterfields generally are double-breasted and heavier. They're more of a dress/city coat. Here's my Gieves & Hawkes Chesterfield:

(I didn't intend to make this a thread about my outerwear collection )

I've seen double breasted, notched lapel coats which otherwise conform to the Chesterfield design - would they be a db Chesterfield, or are they properly a polo adopting some chesterfield touches?

There is also a coat of military heritage known as the 'British warm', which is similar to a polo coat, although the polo coat began as a sporting coat while the British warm was for withstanding the battlefield cold while battling ego-maniacal French emperors. This surplus site is selling a handsome British warm at the moment:

Here is a coat the classic American company J Press calls a British Shortwarmer, which basically is a British warm cut to knee length, I think:

 

[Micawber]

Great minds, I was about to post up a couple of photos of my shortwarmer but photobucket refused to upload.

Success..

Also..

 

[Alan Eardley]

The Ulster Coat

It is possible to identify the origins of the Ulster overcoat more precisely than most other types of indigenous overcoat. It was developed by John Getty McGee and manufactured by the Ulster Overcoat Company of High Street, Belfast, from where they were sold for many years.

It was, of course, chosen by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle as the prefered outdoor wear of his character Sherlock Holmes, although later film versions show a different type of coat which has almost certainly caused confusion.

By late 1899 the style had become well-copied and generic to the extent that Rudyard Kipling used the lower case 'ulster' to describe the coat worn by a character in 'Garm - a Hostage' (a story about a bull terrier).

Most definitions mention the length, the thickness of the fabric and a belt -something like a belted greatcoat. The cloth, called locally 'frieze', is like Melton cloth and was often blue or grey.

Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

Military-derived outerwear

The origins of the 'British warm coat' in WW2 are similar to those of the 'trench coat' in WW1. Commissioned officers in the British Army in both conflicts had something of an aversion to wearing the greatcoat that was issued to 'other ranks' and NCOs. Both items were effectively 'private purchase', although people have tried to convince me that the British warm coat was an issue item, its name deriving from the wording on the label.

Alan

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Esquire's Encyclopaedia Re: Ulster

"An ulster overcoat of vicu?±a ("the acme of luxury in wearables," as a contemporary advertisement described this ultrsoft fleece), melton cloth, whipcord, heavy tweed, or unfinished worsted was more than compatible with a sack suit so full that it required 5 yards of cloth. There was an almost voluptuous quality about such a greatcoat, with its broad collar and lapels, deep pockets, whole or half belt, and double-breasted closure that reflected the decade's [1900-1910, bk] preference for a frankly upholstered look in clothes and decor. The ulster took its name from the Irish province of Ulster, a region where moist, cold winds necessitated sturdy protective garments. Already a popular fashion in the nineteenth century, the ulster then was made of heavy frieze, a double woollen cloth of twill construction. An authentic ulster had a detachable hood or cape, or both, offering still further protection from the inclement weather, but in twentieth century america they seemed superfluous, and so heavy a coat fabric was no longer deemed necessary. As a result, the ulster of 1900 was made in lighter weight fabric that, at 32 ounces or more to the yard, was nevertheless heavy enough to maintain the stalwart look that was the ulster trademark. The semiulster or ulsterette, a slimmer version, would become popular in the next decade."

bk