The OLD WAY.......Ephemera, and other stuff...BEFORE 1920

[M Hatman]

This one is circa 1910:....a "magic lantern" slide.......

 

[Frunobulax]

FALL 1879.....a teaser really.....this has many pages I will be photographing and posting soon........
Note: by "deep" on the listings they are talking BRIM width.
View attachment 196484 View attachment 196485 View attachment 196486

Any idea what "Cass." means?

 

[Bamaboots]

Any idea what "Cass." means?

Yeah, but I ain't tellin you.

 

[Frunobulax]

No, but I will look about through my old dictionaries and hat books............
Hopefully will have an answer.....because you now have ME wondering...looking at its placement, It is a descriptive for fur felt....I think Beaver.....referring to their oiled hair.....from recollection.....but then you know how recollection is......may find the word in the fur trade.....

EDIT!!! I was right it is a shortened version of "Castor" meaning Beaver.....term is an old one and goes back to the early fur trade if not before.

That's curious, as I would think it would be abbreviated to "Cast." rather than "Cass." What is your source?

 

[Hurricane Jack]

That's curious, as I would think it would be abbreviated to "Cast." rather than "Cass." What is your source?

I was curious also. From Wikipedia:

The beaver (genus Castor) is a large, primarily nocturnal, semiaquatic rodent. Castor includes two extant species, the North American beaver (Castor canadensis) (native to North America) and Eurasian beaver (Castor fiber) (Eurasia).[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver

Still doesn't explain the abbreviation however.

 

[Frunobulax]

It is shortened to "cass" because cast is a word in its own right........to shorten to a common word would be confusing......this is not the only example of this sort of abbreviation......

Now, back to the catalog you will notice they use cass and beaver......implying for the catalog that in this instance cass is being used to indicate a beaver blend felt in much the same way many companies use "3x Beaver" et al. And that the use of Beaver would indicate a 100 percent beaver felt. Price structure supports this.........

OK, so you're just making an educated guess. I will keep looking for something more empirical.

 

[Frunobulax]

As some background, I do not always like or trust wikipedia ( anybody can add and change entries?? Really??) and even the etymology in oxfords dictionary leans strongly to english and european source which does not always assist with american source language (or definition).
Consequently I have a substantial collection (over 100 and counting) of american standard, technical and slang dictionaries dating back well over 200 years..........
Only the temporary steward, most of this will be going to my local historical society library.......
I also have a collection of 19th century scientific and technical books on a variety of subjects......including hat making and renovation tomes back to 1868.............
These pictures give a some idea of my upstairs historical library.........
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Which book shows the abbreviation for Castor is Cass.?

 

[Frunobulax]

You do that......I am tired of answering your questions as it seems you are NEVER satisfied. Do your own research. I am DONE!

PLEASE feel free to ignore my posts! Please!

I have no desire to ignore your posts, Mark. I don't think it's too much to ask an amateur historian such as yourself for a citation. While I think your educated guess may be better than others, its still just one man's opinion, with no verification. I'm sorry you can't be bothered to back up your claims, it appears you may have the resources but just don't want to be bothered.

Trust but verify, Mark. In my experience, it's a good practice.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Castor by the way is French for beaver, many trappers were French & France had a thriving fur trade via Canada. However I don't think 'cass.' is an abbreviation for castor since beaver is used in some of the descriptions, so why use castor. See No's. 14 & 18.

 

[Frunobulax]

Good point.

Maybe they're feather hats made from cassowary?

Yeah, uh...no.

 

[Bamaboots]

?

 

[Lean'n'mean]

..you were not paying me for MY time.......

We're all being paid, maybe you should take it up with the management. Don"t settle for any less than $120 an hour.

 

[Frunobulax]

Feel free to come over and have a look. Referencing books and making notes takes a while........last I looked......you were not paying me for MY time.............so YES, I am "bothered" to the extent I am interested.........so.......any more is on YOU.

AND, PLEASE READ MY VERIFIED definiton above (from the 1852 dictionary)......NOW can I spend my time posting more of the catalog.......or are we not interested any more???

No payment Mark. But if you want folks to respect your expertise, shouting your opinion and pounding on the (figurative) table do not advance your claims. I know the definition and etymology of castor, it's the abbreviation I don't think is correct. You make some leaps in logic to get there, and that's too much for me to hang my hat on. Especially given (as referenced above), the term "Beaver" is used in the same listings as "Cass." That kind of blows a big hole in your supposition.

Please post more of the catalog, but don't expect us not to discuss it. I just won't ask you for any background, as it appears you are not bothered with those pesky details.

Or you're just slinging hash.

 

[Frunobulax]

Did you even read...one definition of castor IS: a half beaver hat??? That entirely SUPPORTS what I suggested earlier. And " half beaver hat" is not a all the definition of the word "beaver" in any dictionary.

So........the use of both terms is in no way inconsistent..one refering to a half beaver composition and the other full beaver...LOOK AT THE PRICING ( the beaver are much more expensive than the cass).......and use your common sense you still have.

YOU need to do some more reading.........


OH, and you asked me remember?? It is not my fault you cannot accept my answer (even when "verified").......AGAIN....feel free to look anything up YOURSELF going forward......do not bother to ask me again........SO look up your own pesky details"

I do not post my cataloges with researched definitions of all the words they contain.
SORRY!

OK, fine. Since you just posted the half-beaver update only less than 10 minutes ago, I think my reading is just fine. I'm not completely there yet, but that's a plausible explanation, although you still are relying on your own authority as we have no idea where you got that definition. We have different definitions of "verified."

The fact is, this is the internet and any factual claim we make is dependent upon proof. If I make a claim, my background and areas of expertise are subject to scrutiny. You don't know me or if I am what I claim to be. Therefore, it's common to source these things to back up your claim. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

.LOOK AT THE PRICING ( the beaver are much more expensive than the cass)

Not necessarily. If we can look at exhibit No.1 again, the upper price range of hat number 14, the 'cass.' is superior to that of beaver.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Since 'castor' is a short word anyway & so not in need of abbreviation & since no other hat material is abbreviated, why abbreviate 'castor'?
If buyers had to source & consult an entymological dictionary to find out the significance of 'cass.' it doesn't sound like good advertizing practice.
There is probably a more logical explanantion.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

PLEASE do not ask me what a French pronouncing dictionary is.................

Alors, qu'est-ce qu'un dictionnaire de prononciation français ?

 

[Bamaboots]

the upper price range of hat number 14, the 'cass.' is superior to that of beaver.

Same thing I noticed.

 

[Frunobulax]

Ummm, Fruno...........I posted the definition some good time earlier WITH the source here:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...r-stuff-before-1920.93144/page-6#post-2612882

I did update it too.....but only to bold and underline.......after you kept poking....thinking you MAY ACTUALLY READ IT.....

Not sure how your reading is.......I only referanced the posting at least twice......So.......you need to read this thread again

The earlier post I updated for others convenience......

Oh, and IF you finally read that post......PLEASE do not ask me what a French pronouncing dictionary is.................

Mark, you've gone back and re-edited so many of your posts, I don't know what you posted when, as your reference to the 1852 dictionary is not some thing that I saw originally yesterday.

Nevertheless, it still appears your theory doesn't hold water, based on the descriptions and pricing. Like Lean 'n Mean says, the truth is out there. I would ask if there are any additional introductory pages in this catalog that would provide some insight, but you would probably invoice me.

 

[Frunobulax]

Page capture of An American Dictionary of the English Language, Noah Webster, 1848, Harper & Brothers.

Cassinette is a cloth (fabric) made from cotton and wool, or wool and silk. This definition seems to be accepted up to the present day.

Not claiming this is what "Cass." is, but it provides another clue, possibly.