The Edge

[feltfan]

There has been a lot of loose talk about the Cavanagh Edge and its
many imitators and licensees. Brad Bowers actually took the time to
find the original patent, which you can see here:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=4993

I am opening this new thread to create a reference for this
topic, since it comes up now and again and people find it interesting.
I have a few pictures to post now and will post more later.
Please feel free to post examples from your own collection.

Here is an actual Cavanagh Edge, from a (probably 50s)
beater (see the thread on beaters to see the whole hat).
I am posting this one because it is worn down and you can
actually see the holes where the thread was removed before felting:

Here's a bigger picture of the edge. It's relatively stingy:

Here is Stetson's version, the Mode Edge. I believe Stetson
had another version, the Selv-Edge, but I don't believe I have one,
and don't know how they differ. Please correct me if I am wrong.

And the edge of the hat:

And here is what you should see on the leather sweat band:

This should give an idea of what a Mode Edge should look like:

Here is a 60s era stingy Dobbs Veluna. I gave away the hat
(it didn't fit) but kept a record of the edge. It may have said
Guild Edge (again correct me here). It's probably the narrowest
of these felted edges I've seen:

Here is what is amusingly called a Dobbs Edge, from a 50s-60s hat
with some darn nice felt:

Here's more of the hat and edge (oops, should pushed that hat
band down over the stitches):

Here is what it says on the sweat band:

Arg. There is a ten picture limit. I will post more in the next message.

 

[feltfan]

One more for today

Here is a 60s era Borsalino "Europa" stingy brim, another of my
beaters:

Here's more of it. Sorry it's so dark:

And for the Borsalino liner fans, here is the logo:

 

[Dinerman]

I've got the edge on a resistol as well as a bond.


the bond


the resistol

 

[Brad Bowers]

Great thread, feltfan! Funny you should post this, as I was soon going to ask you about your hats with Cavanagh Edges.

As part of the research for the article I'm writing, I trying to track down any and all brands that ever offered a Cavanagh Edge. Easier said than done, but I know there are quite a few folks here on the Lounge that have extensive collections.

Off the top of my head:
Crofut & Knapp, Cavanagh, Knox, Dobbs, Stetson, Mallory, Resistol, Stack, Borsalino, Lee...

What others am I missing?

Some information about the nomenclature:

Stetson first used the name Selv-Edge in 1933, and it continued into the Fifties, at least. I don't yet know when the Mode Edge first appeared, and if there was really a difference between the two. I suspect the Mode Edge supplanted the name Selv-Edge, but that's merely speculation.

Hat Corp. used the name "Custom Edge" for their Knox line, "Guild Edge" for Dobbs, and, of course, "Cavanagh Edge" for Cavanagh. Custom Edge was use by Knox starting in 1931, while Dobbs didn't start using the Guild Edge name until 1944.

That Dobbs Edge is interesting. I wonder why they didn't use Guild Edge?

If anyone has non-C-K or Cavanagh brand hat with the name Cavanagh Edge, please let me know. That helps to track down any licensing that might have been done.

Since Stetson didn't offer the Selv-Edge until 1933 after the first patent expired, I suspect they didn't even offer that type of edge prior to that year.

From what I've been able to gather, Lee seems to be the last to offer the style, which they called the "Edgelee." I've dated it to the Fifties, but if anyone has anything earlier, again, please let me know.

Borsalino called theirs the "Bordo Doppio," or Double Edge, as our own Steven (besdor) found out. I can't recall having seen it on their sweatbands, but maybe others have.

That's about it for now. I can't give away all my secrets, and certainly not the best ones.

Again, feltfan, thanks for starting a great thread!

Brad

 

[scotrace]

A very great thread - thanks for the education.

I might suggest you rename it "The Cavanagh Edge" so that viewers can more easily find it and know what it contains.

 

[Feraud]

Off the top of my head:
Crofut & Knapp, Cavanagh, Knox, Dobbs, Stetson, Mallory, Resistol, Stack, Borsalino, Lee...

What others am I missing?

I was informed by fellow Loungers that the edge on this Duff brand hat is a Cavanagh edge.

I can provide better photos if necessary.

 

[besdor]

Cav Edge

The real challenge would be if someone today could duplicate the Cav edge . Anybody ever asked Art or Graham if they could ? I think the closest would be a welted edge .



Steven

 

[astaire]

they're addictive, i tell you!

Ever since i started learning about the "edge" from Brad's and other knowledgable experts' posts, i have foolishly stopped looking at hats without these edges.

I know this is a bad thing. Can someone help me get rid of this terrible addiction? Is there someone else with this cavanagh-edge-itis?

We have a good knowledge when different hat companies started using these edges. Do we know when they stopped? I suppose it was in the late sixties or early seventies due to cost constraints. Brad, do you know when?

Thanks All.

 

[feltfan]

Some replies

Glad to see some people are interested.

Brad: I will post a Stevens "Hand Felted Edge" soon, so
add them to your list. Interesting that it is called "hand felted"-
makes it seem as though a skilled custom hatter of today
could do this (Art take note).

Feraud: I will refrain from calling you "Duffman". There appear to
be visible stitch marks on the underside of the edge of your Duff
hat. I haven't seen that before. I wonder if they used the same
process or perhaps left the stitching in, like an overwelt that is then felted?

Scotrace: It appears to me that I can't rename the thread. I can
edit the contents of my posts, but not the titles. Let me know if
I am missing something.

Dinerman: Is there something about the way the Bond and Resistol
edges are done that is different? Do they have unique names for these
edges printed on the sweatband or liner? Part of what I find interesting
is the different styles and names (for what is essentially the same thing).
The only company whose hats used the name "Cavanagh Edge" (aside from
Cavanagh of course), at least among my hats, was Crofut and Knapp,
and that's on a very old hat (which I have posted elsewhere on this site).
No one else renamed "underwelt" or "bound edge" as far as I know.

Thanks to those who are sharing more hat shots. Let's see
more of these edges!

 

[DanielJones]

My Stetson Sovereign has that 'Mode Edge'.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[Mr. Rover]

The real challenge would be if someone today could duplicate the Cav edge . Anybody ever asked Art or Graham if they could ? I think the closest would be a welted edge .



Steven
Bencrafthats.com

The closest modern hats can get to a Cavanagh edge is an underwelt. For some reason it simulates the traits of the Cavanagh edge and looks similar from the top. An overwelt isn't quite the same.
Nobody can do the Cav. Edge in shop- it has to be done AT the felter. I believe Graham has said that if he can guarantee atleast 50 people, he can order a Cavanagh edge felt from his felter (Winchester?).


Ray

 

[Brad Bowers]

The hand felted edge, by whatever name it is known, starts at the very beginning of the felting process, and there is nothing a custom hatter could do to replicate it, other than a facsimile such as a sewn or glued welt.

And sorry, folks, I have it on no uncertain terms from Winchester that they will never produce the Cavanagh Edge again. I have interviewed Richard at length about the Cavanagh Edge for my article. They regularly get requests for it, but will never make them again, no matter how much money someone puts into the bodies.

That being said, there is nothing stopping a modern manufacturer from producing one, if they think the economics are right. Could Biltmore or Hatco still make them? I believe so, if they still have anyone on board that remembers how to do them.

Our best bet might be to convince one of the overseas felters. They might be more amenable to the idea.

Cool, Bond, Duff and Stevens have been added to the list.


Brad

 

[Matt Deckard]

Cool pics and good topic.

One reason I was told that the hatters don't want to reproduce the slf felted edge is because it would have to be done to multiple hats... it would be a whole run. If the customer wanted a shorter brim and it was cut off that would be a total waste. It could just be costly... well... we'll see if it ever returns.

A lot of the hats I have found over the years have had the self felted edge, I think most companie used the process from Knox to Stetson. You even see it done by the small corner shop hats you find now and again. We used to have a guy around here who stated that the cav edge was a sign of lesser quality and trying to shore up a weaker felt. How soon he was proven wrong. It's just another edge treatment that keeps the hat looking good. A treatment you find on the higher end hats.

I'm not a fan of the stitched underwelt. They used to also make balloon welts where it was self welted on top and bottom. I prefer bound edges nowadays, though if they make a cav-edge again, I'll buy one.

 

[tonyb]

I suppose it would be kinda cool if a quality hat-body manufacturer again produced a Cav edge, but part of what I like about my pair of Stetson Mode Edge lids is that they just plain don't make 'em that way anymore.
EDIT: Almost forgot that I have a Borsalino with a "Cavanagh" edge as well. A buddy found it at a yard sale several years ago (like a decade or more ago) and gave it to me. I think he said it cost him five bucks. The model is called "Savoy." I never thought of it as being particularly "vintage," but now I'm reconsidering that. Any idea when Borsalino last produced hats with "Cav" edges?

 

[feltfan]

Three more edges

Here are three more examples.

The first hat is the Stevens 3 X Beaver Ten with a "Hand Felted Edge".
I love this hat. It is comfortable and stylish! The band is a brown with
a sort of grey cast to it.

As I mentioned, it is marked "Hand Felted Edge":

Here is the entire interior:

My sharpest true Cavanagh Edge is on a hat that
I suspect to be from the 70s (judging from other hats
the eBay seller was getting rid of and the gold size tag, etc)
but using as nice a Cav felt as I have come across, with a
full 2 3/4" brim and a nice big crown:

Here's a blurry pic of the edge:

Finally, some of you remember this old Crofut and Knapp soft "homburg".
Here it is "open crown" on my ballistrade:

Here is the edge:

Hard to find a Cavanagh (by any name) Edge on a homburg!
They usually have bound edges.

You can see more about this hat, including the Cavanagh
Edge logo embossed on the leather sweatband here (scroll down a ways):
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=7618&page=3

 

[Matt Deckard]

That's still a Fedora to me.

 

[feltfan]

That's still a Fedora to me.

fftopic: How do you figure? There's no way to fold down the brim-
it's a totally different brim style. Is the bound brim what
defines a homburg? If so, is this hat also a fedora?

Note the curve on the (stiff, flat, unbound) brim.

The Crofut and Knapp is certainly an odd homburg. Really it wouldn't
have been called one then and probably predates the term. But it's
not a fedora. Follow the link and have a look at the photos I posted of
the hat on my head. Not a very "fedora" look.

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

My Borsalino from French Indochina has a rolled edge like that. It doesn't seem to want to be flipped down and I don't want to force it. Here it is.

I'm guessing it's probably from around the 1920s.



To me, a Homburg has a wider radius to the brim curl.