Suit Wearing Guidelines?

[Derek WC]

I've always wondered what the 'guidelines' for suit wearing were - say for example, would it be proper to wear two coats, or possibly two overcoats if it got really cold?

 

[avedwards]

I can't see why two overcoats would not be allowed, but I would personally prefer to wear one heavy weight coat over a heavy weight suit if it was really that cold. I would find two coats too bulky to move around in.

 

[DocMustang]

I can recall at Great lakes during boot camp we would wear our raincoats with lining, under (or over) our peacoats when it got really cold. I cannot see a reason for doing that in civilian life. I believe I would wear a thick wool felt double breasted topcoat, a good scarf, my suit jacket, a sweater vest and a good set of long johns. I do not think I would add an additional coat.

Although I guess I could see wearing some type of wind proof/water resistant cloth over a topcoat in really extreme weather since it would add another type of protection It would have to be a purpose made garment though. Likely something full length and made of oilcloth or some other type of weather resistant material. It would have to completely cover your wool topcoat something like a Duster but more formal.

 

[Derek WC]

I've got a wool felt USAF overcoat from the 50's and that doesn't keep me too warm despite the fact that the felt is a quarter of an inch thick.

 

[Dr Kilroy]

I think that raincoats were invented to protect real overcoats from rain.

Best regards, Dr

 

[Derek WC]

Yes, I had always figured something along those lines Kilroy.

 

[bil_maxx]

If you wear a really heavy wool coat, plus gloves a scarf and of course a hat, over a heavy suit, you should be able to handle almost any cold weather. I live in Canada and have never had an issue with being cold as long as you make sure your extremities are warm. Even in a suit you may be forced to wear winter boots though.

Regarding wearing suits in general, there are very few places you "can't" wear a suit. Any place where people wear long pants and sleeves would usually allow a suit. Notable exceptions would be the obvious ones, like a backyard BBQ, pool or beach visit, casual house party or a child's sporting event. Other than that, you can be flexible.

 

[Derek WC]

That makes sense, bil_maxx.

I wonder - what do you guys think would be warmer, wool flannel, tweed, or felt? What should a dress overcoat be lined with? I've found they're usually lined with satin, which I wouldn't think would be very warm.

 

[DocMustang]

I wonder - what do you guys think would be warmer, wool flannel, tweed, or felt? What should a dress overcoat be lined with? I've found they're usually lined with satin, which I wouldn't think would be very warm.

As in many things, A great deal would depend on the quality of the material.

To maintain warmth, a cloth needs to insulate properly, there are two types of insulation, barrier, and loft. Barrier insulation works by reflecting emitted heat back to the interior and by preventing a cold air mass from entering. Loft insulation essentially provides an airmass buffer for heat storage and insulates from conduction loss. The most effective garments, utilize both types of insulation in combination.

The outermost layer should be windproof, this could be anything from leather to a good tightly woven flannel or tweed, but it must be tightly woven. Felt can be used in this application but again in must be very tightly felted. I have both a navy Pea Coat and a Bridge Coat (full length overcoat) which are made from a very heavy tight felt. I suspect that the Air Force felt coat mentioned earlier was of thick but loosely felted material. This would let the cold air penetrate the loft resulting in ineffective insulation.

An inner layer should provide loft. The purpose of loft is to provide a buffer and limit heat loss through conduction and convection to the outer layer. A loose felt, heavy knit or even fur, (think bomber jacket) is ideal for this. It should be as thick as practical for both temperature and weight. Too much and you overheat and the garment is too heavy, not enough and you freeze.

A word about materials, cotton because it is a vegetable fiber absorbs water deep into the fibers themselves, without some other treatment, as with an oilskin or some more modern treatments, will lose its loft and rob you of heat. Wool is ideal because it does not absorb water due to its natural oils, and the properties of the fiber. Wool fibers, well maintained, actually repel water. The cloth may absorb water but the individual fibers do not. A wool sweater or coat can simply be wrung out and will maintain most of its insulating properties.

As to the lining, the lining serves a practical purpose; a good satin lining will prevent your outer garment from clinging to your inner garment. This adds to the "airspace" and allows the loft to perform its function better. If the other portions of your garment do their jobs correctly, the lining material will not matter. However if the rest of the garment insulates poorly, a satin liner will not work at all and is likely to make things worse.

A complicated answer to your question but I think it is better to understand why something works, than to simply understand what works.

 

[carldelo]

^^^ excellent explanation Doc. I have a modern overcoat that is just a little too loosely woven. It's fine, even on very cold days, unless a strong wind picks up - then it quickly loses effectiveness. When I know it's going to be windy, I wear a heavy flannel suit under it.

Mechanically speaking, a satin liner allows you to actually put an overcoat on. If the liner was also tweed or felt, it would catch on the suit jacket, bunching it up and preventing it from hanging correctly. I have a raincoat with a wool liner that is a real pain to put on over a tweed or corduroy jacket because it doesn't slide properly. I usually end up with the jacket collar around my ears, which is not amusing.

 

[Derek WC]

Doc, the USAf overcoat I've got doesn't let the slightest whim of air go through, but it takes a long time for me to warm up in it - my diagnosis is that it doesn't have the loft you speak of.

Carldelo, Yes I certainly understand the need of the satin liner, but if they made the satin just halfway up the back, on the shoulders, and in the sleeves with the rest a warm liner than it shouldn't matter that much.

Oh, yes - thanks for the information, Doc.

Another thing, I've got a Harris Tweed coat that is warmer than my overcoat, but when a breeze picks up it's lost.

 

[DocMustang]

Doc, the USAf overcoat I've got doesn't let the slightest whim of air go through, but it takes a long time for me to warm up in it - my diagnosis is that it doesn't have the loft you speak of.

Carldelo, Yes I certainly understand the need of the satin liner, but if they made the satin just halfway up the back, on the shoulders, and in the sleeves with the rest a warm liner than it shouldn't matter that much.

Oh, yes - thanks for the information, Doc.

Another thing, I've got a Harris Tweed coat that is warmer than my overcoat, but when a breeze picks up it's lost.

I was going to point out that if the felt is too tight, without the loft it acts as a single layer and you get heat loss through conduction. I would guess that your shoulders and back stay the coldest followed by your chest and anywhere else your body comes in contact with the exterior fabric.

If the loft layer is present between the outer layer and the lining a satin lining is fine. If there is no loft you get conduction losses right through the liner.

Its thermodynamics in every day life!

 

[Tomasso]

What should a dress overcoat be lined with? I've found they're usually lined with satin...

Very few makers use silk/satin and those that do are mostly bespoke tailors. For years Bemberg has been the choice of the better makers with cheaper synthetics used at the lower end.

 

[Derek WC]

I had figured, Tomasso. Was there synthetic satin (not rayon) in 1952, as that was the year it was made?

 

[DocMustang]

Satin is type of weave normally consisting of 4 over 1 under. The satin weave can be (and is) made with many types of fiber. What we normally think of as satin is actually silk satin. Historically it was the most common fiber used with this weave so much so that the terms satin and silk satin have become nearly synonymous and some definitions insist that satin can only be made of silk. Fibers which are filaments such as polyester and nylon can also correctly be referred to as satin. Fibers of a spun nature such as cotton, or I suspect bemberg, when woven with a satin weave are often referred to as sateen to differentiate them.

Derek,
Nylon was as a substitute for silk as early as 1940, particularly in womens stockings and parachutes. I would suspect as discussed above that it was definately available, I have no idea if it was used in garment manufacture but I strongly suspect that it would have been. Polyester did not come into common use until the mid 1950's and was not as refined and flexible as we know it to be today. It was used in a few types of garments in the 50's under the Dacron label but really did not come into common use until the early 60's.

Of course Acetate, Rayon (including Bemberg) would have been available and were likely to have been in common use.

The best way to determine what type of fabric you are dealing with is to perform a burn test on a small section cut from the seam allowance. The general rule is cottons and rayons and wools (all types of animal hair fibers) ignite when the flame comes near, silk and synthetics curl away from the heat.
Cottons, rayons and linen smell of burnt paper when burned and leave a course black ash (each also burns at a slightly different rate)
Silk and wool smell of burning hair (silk smells worse) and leave a fine grey to white ash.
Synthetic fabrics melt into hard lumps and smell of chemicals or plastic.

 

[drummer4hire]

This thread is intense, but chock full of great info. Doc, what do you do for a living, or rather, where have you amassed this knowledge?

 

[MikeBravo]

Mechanically speaking, a satin liner allows you to actually put an overcoat on. If the liner was also tweed or felt, it would catch on the suit jacket, bunching it up and preventing it from hanging correctly. I have a raincoat with a wool liner that is a real pain to put on over a tweed or corduroy jacket because it doesn't slide properly. I usually end up with the jacket collar around my ears, which is not amusing.

To the casual observer it could be very amusing. he he Just joshing ya! **

** Definition of JOSH
intransitive verb
: to engage in banter : joke
transitive verb
: to tease good-naturedly : kid
— josh·er noun