SchoTT "A-2" Question...???

[johnnyjohnny]

was wondering why Schott, clearly a high quality and well-known military jacket maker, insists on making such a NON-military spec A-2?

i thought their pseudo A-2 with the side-slit handwarmer pockets so prominent, and the snaps at the front bottom, and on the front top instead of a throat hook, and the blowsy over-roomy fit, despite the inherent quality to the jacket, was kind of an embarassment for such a high-end company that purports to make "real" military jackets

recently i discovered that Schott has indeed made MILSPEC A-2 jackets...though they are harder to find than a living leprechaun...

why did they stop, and why, unlike a companies such as cockpitusa, uswings, gibson and barnes, etc., and the high end replicators, does Schott not offer a MILSPEC version of their A-2...especially since they in fact were a government contract maker of a milspec version...why not honour that history?

thanks for any info, or even speculation
johnnyjohnny

 

[Fletch]

There are a LOT of guys out there who expect a loose outerwear fit, handwarmers, and extra pockets, and who honestly think that rounded shoulders, antiqued lambskin, and Stars and Stripes liners look ultra-macho. There are comparatively few buyers who insist on milspec, and most of those are satisfied with another maker's jacket. Schott probably doesn't need to service the milspec market because they have such a good business in civilian styles.

(In case anyone has any doubts about how expected an oversize fit is: I tried on a plain black lamb windbreaker at a local discount store in a size 42, a comfortable but trim looking fit on me. An older guy shopping alongside me immediately said in a loud voice, "Too small! You need bigger!")

 

[johnnyjohnny]

is their credibility Schott?

thank you fletch...i guess when you come to appreciate the real thing, it's hard, for me anyway, to understand why a maker with such credibility in workmanship would not even bother to cover that market...i was pretty disgusted with all the Schotts i've seen, being so far off the mark, and then blown away in finding a couple of milspec Schotts...they look incredible in the pix i've seen whilst purchasing them online...will definitely update when they arrive

i still, however, wish they would reintroduce their milspec model and sell it currently, as i wish Spiewak and Sons would do the same...as i've said prior on this website, the milspec cockpitusa exact replica of avirex's 1987 a-2 is simply remarkable...it beats hands down the cooper milspecs from that era...i think if Schott started making replica's of THEiR 80s-90s milspec a-2s, it would be a pricey collectible they would be proud to offer...but just one wearer's opinion

thanks
johnnyjohnny

 

[Edward]

Fletch has it: Schott are, it seems to me, servicing the mass-market, so they'll supply what sells there. Realistically speaking, the market for period accurate jackets is limited. Those of us who care about such things will want to avoid handwarmer pockets, or moan about "Irvins" and "B3s" with pockets or whatever, but the reality is that most folks expect and require those features for civilian use. Very few people want the authentic wartime jacket experience - what they want is something practical and which suits their modern tastes. I should have thought that, given the limited nature of the market for period accurate jackets, between Buzz, Aero, ELC, Real MaCoys, Goodwear, the small marketplace would already start to feel a bit crowded, and it's simply not on the scale that a company like Schott would go for. A pity, I agree, given their quality overall, but there's capitalism.

 

[Fletch]

Yes, there really are amazingly few fellas into the repros. They do, however, buy a lot of jackets per capita.

Someone over on broadarrow.net, a site about military watches, commented that the greatest assortment of high-end repro A-2s he ever saw was on the streets of the Castro district in SF. Just FWIW. [huh]

 

[Weston]

Uuum, from what I've heard the Castro district may be where you want to go to find guys who are INTO leather, if you catch my meaning. But I've never been, so just a little heads up!

 

[johnnyjohnny]

Streets of SanFrancisco, Schott, etc.

before moving the conversation off the streets of sanfran, i should relate what a friend from the clothing business and sanfran (a lady mind you, who nevertheless knew whereof she spoke) chided me for wearing my milspec a-2s in the regular vs. long size...i stated that this is the way they were designed to be worn, and she added that such is the way the folks that inhabit the castro district prefer their a-2s...of course, for a different reason than the military, which wanted easy access to tools for wearers...though, if one was a punning sort, one might make the same comment for the castro crowd...

either way, and in no way concerned about this gay comparison, i decided at 6'1" i did look better in an a-2 that didn't ride up on my waist, so have gone for the Long vs. regular...

but that conversation aside, i have a question about Schott...as mentioned, i came across several Schotts that that seem military spec and grade...i received one today...it has the military fit, tight and high, has the throat hook, which no civilian Schotts do, and it has a u.s. contract and drawing number on it, which no civilian Schotts do as far as i know...HoWeVER...it does have side entry pockets...

this appears in every respect to be military specification for proper military usage...as far as i know, in 1996 the side entry pocket ban was relaxed on military spec a-2s...but so was the requirement for a throat hook...did Schott just pick and choose which updated military specs they wanted on this military 'contract' (with a drawing number) jacket? seems they chose to go milspec on everything except the side entry pockets...

just more info for the pile, and also would be interested in any information on this military specification side of Schott a-2s if anyone has any

thanks
johnnyjohnny

 

[striker]

When you have time, would you be able to post some photos of the military spec and grade Schott with the side entry pockets? I would really be interested to see it.

Are the pockets the standard 'tall' Schott pouch pockets with the side entry? Are the side entry pockets angled a bit or are they straight?

On the authentic A-2 the pockets are very small compared to the much larger Schott pockets.

On the military spec and grade Schott you have, what is the approximate distance from the beginning of the the armhole line to the top of the flap of the pocket?

Also, does this Schott have leather covered snap buttons for the pocket flaps and windflap?

Thanks,

Striker

 

[johnnyjohnny]

SchoTT daTa

thank you striker...the info i can give you is that the measurements on everything are the same as any other 1987 and after milspec a-2 i have, including a spiewak and sons, and a cooper...these having no side pockets...the only variations are some slight differences on the points of the collars between those different jackets...basically 25" from collar seam to very bottom in the back, and likewise with minimal variations in all the other measurements...front SMALL patch pockets...throat hook...really the whole milspec deal...only difference is the side entry pockets that have their vertical entry just to the right of the right pocket, and just left of the left pocket, parallel to the vertical sides of those pockets...oh, and their is a snap on the bottom of the jacket where the bottom of the zipper starts, which the other jackets don't have...other than that it has the drawing no. and contract no. (which states 1987)...i've included a pic of the front of the jacket (the back is one piece) and you can just make out the side entry pockets...

my opinion is that this schott was made milspec from the 1987 recommission specifications, hence the 1987 contract number, but was made 1996 or later when specs were relaxed to allow the side entry pockets...

NOTE, as i try to use the upload picture function on fedoralounge it keeps showing upload failure...very sorry...but hopefully my description says it all...i would like to show this but am sorry the upload will not take, it's a small jpeg file from my computer, have no idea why it's not loading...but the url of the photo from the ebay auction is:

http://i13.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/45/4a89_1.JPG

johnnyjohnny

second note: i have purchased another of these, one which i know was made prior to 1996, and though i have not received it, the seller and pictures state and show that there are NO handwarmer side pockets...this bolsters my opinion that the side handwarmer pockets on this otherwise milspec schott is only because it was made 1996 or later when the side entry handwarmer pocket was allowed by the air force on milspec jackets...

 

[striker]

Thanks Johnny...

Ok, so the pockets are the authentic A-2 pockets, except for the side entry pockets.

I am really interested in learning about their mil spec A-2's, and also very interested in learning about their old 1950's civilian flight jackets.

Johnny, on the civilian Schott's, were the pockets always made with that standard large pouch pocket with the side pocket incorporated into it? Did Schott offer different pocket styling for it's flight jackets?

Thanks,

Striker

 

[striker]

By the way, do the civilian Schott flight jackets have the authentic A-2 under arm ventilation grommets?

 

[johnnyjohnny]

another Schott, bartender

hi striker and all who are interested in schotts, which until recently i thought was a big ole wannabe jacket...but not so...

i have received the second schott milspec a-2, which was made in 1992, prior to relaxation of a-2 military specs (in 1996)...this one is totally right on the milspec money...not a thread non-milspec, with contract and drawing number on it...

soooooo sadly, whilst the jacket is a mil 46 with very nice wide shoulder enough to accomodate me, i cannot wear this piece as these milspec schotts run short...verrry ww2-ish they are...the length is truly only 25" from the bottom collar seam...and that is laid out stretched on a flat surface...when worn it is higher as with all of these...i'm 6'1" and it needs at least another full inch to look even ww2 a-2 proper...for my preferences of slightly bigger than mil sizes, this does not work at 6'1"...

i will at some point be selling it, but it is the only full milspec schott a-2 i've ever seen, in person or on the net...no slash or handwarmer side pockets, only the patch pockets...throat collar...one piece back, etc.

i do own a size 42 milspec schott a-2 that i've mentioned (for sale), but as mentioned, it is post 1996 and does have the slash side handwarmer pockets, the only variance at all from the 1992 and earlier...tho the slash pockets are to the rear of the patch pockets, and are actually quite nice...

just for note, i've seen at least three of the post 1996 schott milspec a-2s (contract number, drawing number, everything else milspec except the slash pockets) on the net...but only one full on milspec 1992 or earlier, the one i'm referencing here

don't really know anything about the civilian schotts...my fanatacism is all in the milspec, post ww2 a-2s...

when i get around to taking a pic of the full on milspec, i'll definitely post here...

best, johnnyjohnny

 

[garzo]

I just wanted to add that while Schott may not be covering exactly the same sector as Aero, Eastman, Lost Worlds and other repro specialists, they are making very decent and respectable "modern" leather jackets for a wide range of uses, from motorcycle jackets to decent "A2"-inspired designs that are sturdy, warm and well-made.

The Schott 184SM was the first leather jacket I ever got and after years of wearing it I gave it to my uncle and went on to a few other more "authentic" jackets such as Aero, Eastman and Gibson and Barnes, and while I still have those, I recently picked up a new Schott 184SM because it's a damn comfortable and tough jacket.

I don't think Schott pretends that it's anywhere close to a milspec flight jacket. It's just a workhorse jacket with an inspired design, with a fur zip lining and collar for those cold days. I live in Berlin, Germany and my G&B Historical A2, while nice in spring weather, is utterly useless in sub-zero temperatures. The Schott, however, keeps me toasty, and I can wear a sweater underneath if need be, which I usually do this time of year.

And Schott is not Avirex or Cooper with the gaudy maps and flags and decorations in the lining. Sure, they are a bit roomier than the tight-fitting repros, but also much, much more comfortable and practical (you all know that carrying keys, wallet, cell phone, pda, etc. in the two small pockets of a classic A2 isn't easy).

I once had a beautiful Aero Highwayman but more often than not I felt like I was wearing a horsehide straight jacket rather than a comfortable coat (reminder to self -- next time order a bi-swing back!).

 

[Edward]

I don't think anyone could argue against the quality of the Schott jackets, whatever our individual preferences. Being a big fan of the traditional Brando-style MC jacket, I'd love one day to have a Schott Perfecto model. If memory serves they were one of the first - the first? - to produce this style, and it was a Perfecto that Brando wore in The Wild One, I believe.

 

[BigHairyFinn]

Hi guys, piggybacking here. Does anyone have a Schott size 52 G-1; I'm eyeing one on Ebay and just curious of the arm length/back length and is it a tight fit? Civilian version by the looks of it with a fake fur lining that doesn't come off. Another one is an Avirex that says "Made in China" and 4XL. Now is that what in "real sizes" US? 46? Its one of these with the french frank and a pinup girl in the lining...

 

[Atticus Finch]

was wondering why Schott, clearly a high quality and well-known military jacket maker, insists on making such a NON-military spec A-2?

Schott makes good M/C jackets, but I wasn't aware that they ever had a military contract. Which jacket did they make and when?

Atticus

 

[Doctor Strange]

I'm not sure that they ever had a military contract (except for maybe peacoats), but they sell both "A-2s" and "G-1s" here:

http://www.schottnyc.com/bomber_jackets.cfm

Of course, their A-2 has a 2-piece back and 3-piece sleeves, and the G-1 is made of lambskin and includes the dreaded picture lining, and the prices seem awfully high...

 

[Atticus Finch]

I'm not sure that they ever had a military contract (except for maybe peacoats), but they sell both "A-2s" and "G-1s" here:

Hi Doc and All,

OK. Now I'm with 'ya. So we're just talking mil-spec jackets and not the issued ones. I was thinking that I could name all of the recent A-2 and G-1 suppliers, but I was worried that Schott had landed a small contract that had somehow eluded me.

Atticus

 

[Nic Charles]

A-2

I have never liked the Schott A-2 jacket from an authenticity point of view. If you want and authentic A-2, I would get an Eastman. The US distributer is History Preservation Associates and you can order from them at:

http://historypreservation.com/hpassociates/eastmanlanding_2.php

I have an Eastman British Irvin Jacket and it is a dead-on match to an original.

 

[Edward]

I'm not sure that they ever had a military contract (except for maybe peacoats), but they sell both "A-2s" and "G-1s" here:

http://www.schottnyc.com/bomber_jackets.cfm

Of course, their A-2 has a 2-piece back and 3-piece sleeves, and the G-1 is made of lambskin and includes the dreaded picture lining, and the prices seem awfully high...

Over here Schotts and Avirexes and so on all seem to sell for in and around the same price as Aero / Eastman new. Seems expensive for a baggy, modern fit jacket to me, but they must have a fair market for them or they wouldn't keep selling at that price!