San Fran and Pit Bulls...

[Biltmore Bob]

By JUSTIN M. NORTON, Associated Press Writer
Wed Nov 16, 1:09 AM ET



SAN FRANCISCO - City supervisors passed new laws requiring spaying and neutering of pit bulls on Tuesday, five months after the fatal mauling of a 12-year-old boy by his family's pit bulls.

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It was the latest move in the contentious debate about how to regulate pit bulls after the death of Nicholas Faibish in June.

"This will serve as a model for other cities in how to responsibly craft laws and policies that deal with dog aggression," said Supervisor Bevan Dufty, who wrote the laws. "We needed to do something."

Dufty said that over the next two to three years, the rules will reduce the number of pit bulls in the hands of irresponsible owners.

The ordinances also require city permits to breed pit bulls and prohibit owners of pit bulls or pit bull mixes from retrieving impounded dogs unless the animals are sterilized.

Owners who refuse to spaying or neutering would face fines of up to $1,000. Breeders of show dogs recognized by a kennel club would be exempt. The ordinances are scheduled to go into effect Jan. 1.

The rules were passed as a group of dog owners is collecting signatures in an effort to overturn a recently passed state law that allows cities and counties to enact "breed specific" ordinances.

The group must collect more than 300,000 signatures to qualify for the ballot, by next November at the earliest.

Dawn Capp, the attorney leading the effort, called San Francisco's measure rushed and predicted a legal challenge.

"It's not a surprise ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äù they had their minds made up way back when," said Capp, adding that bad legislation "has far outnumbered dog bites in the history of humanity."

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Now my opinion...It's not unconstitutional so if they want to ban parakeets they should be able to.

 

[Mycroft]

How does this help the problem of attacking pit bulls, I am sorry for the boy's family, but will this prevent anything?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Seems a bit silly to only require this for one type of dog. I'd imagine that pit bulls are not responsible for all maulings.

Surely they can limit pit bull maulings with a mouth-guard cage or something similar which can be attached when the dog is in public?

Sounds to me like something the politicians couldn't be against, and the people couldn't vote against for fear of seeming insensitive. In another word, reactionary.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

a mouth-guard cage or something similar

Commonly known as a muzzle. My English failed me for a second there

 

[Biltmore Bob]

I've been a professional dog trainer for some time, and I really don't believe in breed specific dog bans. However, I do believe that Pit Bull Dogs can be very dangerous in general. Some pit bull dogs can be very submissive and gentle and sometimes they can be very aggressive, as most breeds can. But they are very powerful and can be stubborn. I would not have one around children. But there are people that say that about German Shepherd Dogs and Doberman Pincers. Pit Bull enthusiasts will even tell you not to trust them fully around other dogs and children. You have to remember what they were developed for...and that would be fighting. They were never intended to be human aggressive, but I believe they will take advantage of the small, infirm, apprensive or frightened human. Sort of a pack culling instinct, if you will.

Of course oppinions being what they are, your milage may vary.

 

[scotrace]

The Thing Is...

...that few people can identify a Pit Bull proper. Some see a Bull Terrier, and call it a Pit Bull. Or an Am Staf, or Bulldog, or even a Boxer or Boston Terrier. This kind of legislation is innefective and weak. Just throwing a bone, so to speak, at those who demand action.

Of course, I have no solution beyond enforcing leash and confinement laws already on the books.
Right Bob?

 

[The Wingnut]

I grew up with three different Boxers. I can't count how many people thought Kassius, Mick and Sarge were Pit Bulls. Ignorance can be a powerful and dangerous thing.

American Staffordshire Terriers are 'pit bulls', but they're not bred for agression. They can be very friendly and affectionate.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

...that few people can identify a Pit Bull proper. Some see a Bull Terrier, and call it a Pit Bull. Or an Am Staf, or Bulldog, or even a Boxer or Boston Terrier. This kind of legislation is innefective and weak. Just throwing a bone, so to speak, at those who demand action.

Of course, I have no solution beyond enforcing leash and confinement laws already on the books.
Right Bob?

It's kind of like banning guns while it's against the law to commit murder.

 

[gdkenoyer]

It's not like San Fran is known for implementing well-thought-out, actionable laws...evidence their recent gun law.

on the other hand, anything that lessens the number of loose pit bulls (or poodles) can't be all bad...

 

[Absinthe_1900]

I grew up with three different Boxers. I can't count how many people thought Kassius, Mick and Sarge were Pit Bulls. Ignorance can be a powerful and dangerous thing.QUOTE]

I run into that now and then with my Boxer.

I had the Imp out on the leash for a walk, then a yuppie couple came up with a Chihuahua, and promptly scooped up their dog mumbling is that a Pit Bull?, their Chihuahua started to yap, causing my "brave" Boxer to get behind me, and stand between my feet for protection.:cry:

 

[Quigley Brown]

Working for a newspaper here I've been involved in stories about the pros and cons of pit bulls and I gotten to meet the owners of the most adorable and loving ones. But there have been several incidents in this town (about 50,000 population) in the past couple of years where pit bulls have escaped their yards and severaly injured innocent people and have killed other dogs. A while back some questionable people moved in next door to me. Within a short time they brought home a pit bull puppy. It kept escaping the house (they always left the door open) and it seemed I was always having to rescue it from certain death as it wandered down the busy street. One day I saw one of the owners in his back yard picking up the puppy by the back of the neck and throwing it around. My first thought was that it was the method the guy was using to make the dog become mean. I and all my other neighbors knew the residents of this house were drug dealers and had regular meeting with the police about it and a fews days after I witnessed this abuse incident the cops raided the place and arrested everyone. It was sad to see the animal control people have to take the puppy away. Still, I see questionable people walking their pit bulls around town as status symbols using heavy chains as leashes. When I'm out walking my dog and see them I cross the street. My dog is an Australian Cattle Dog and have actually had someone ask if she was a pit bull!...usually people ask if she's a fox or a dingo. Anyway...unfortunately I'd have to side with the people who want to ban pit bulls.

 

[The Wingnut]

I've become tired of the metality that if some object is prolific in a crime or major social problem, the solution is to ban the object.

This does not solve the problem, it simply makes a statement. It's a placebo.

The problem in this case is NOT the dog. It's the owner. Measures should be taken to curb the behavior that creates agressive dogs before adressing the issue by banning the dogs themselves. As a number of people have pointed out, there are loving, adoring, non-agressive 'pit bulls' out there...why take away the pets of the people who have done nothing wrong in order to penalize those who have?

I'll point out that Rottweilers have gained a reputation similar to pit bulls in recent years...it would be an easy shift once pit bulls are banned to simply move to another breed. Rottweilers haven't always had the agressive reputation that they have now...they used to just be large, attractive dogs with stocky features.

As Quigley pointed out, the neighbor who was evidently trying to produce an agressive dog was already of questionable character before the dog even came into the picture. The dog wasn't the problem, it was simply a symptom of a greater ill. In this case, the abuse did give the police cause to raid and 'discover' what was already suspected...but it should never have to come to that.

Banning objects related to crime in order to control socially unacceptable behavior is a last resort.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

I had a Blue ACD, and protection trained him. He was the best dog I ever had. He was much smarter than my Border Collie and ten times smarter than my goofy Australian Shepherd. He was serious and extremely loyal and devoted to only me. He put up with my family, but I was his main focus. Sadly he considered a Park Ranger as a threat during a family campout, and bit her badly. The woman accidently fell on my wife while holding a folding camp chair. He was just doing what I had trained him to do. Unluckily for the poor woman. I tried to justify the bite, but when it came down to it, the Ranger was an innocent party, even if the dynamics of the situation were such that it appeared the Ranger was assaulting my wife. ACDs are extremely powerful dogs too.

By the way, I believe Cocker Spaniels are the number one breed likely to bite or turn on it's owner.

 

[Quigley Brown]

Bob, you didn't have to give your heeler up because of that incident, did you? Arizona (my heeler) is going on 15 and I am the sole purpose of her life, it seems. She does not allow anyone but me to touch her. She's not really a mean dog...I just tell people not to pet her. She does have sense about people, though. We might walk by some people and she won't give them a glance, but sometimes there is someone that I'll practically have to yank her away from and I don't know why that is. I can tell she's beginning to slow down because of her age. She's been my one and only dog and thoughts are starting to creep in my head about....well...15 is getting pretty old for a dog. I could never get another one after her.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

I made the decision to have Dundee put down. The injury was very severe. I'll never protection train another dog.

ACDs have set the record for logevity, 25 years I think.

 

[jamespowers]

ACDs have set the record for logevity, 25 years I think.

Twenty five years old!? Geez, my ten year old is just a spring chicken then. I am going to look forward to the next fifteen years then. Likely she will grow old with my kids.
I never protection trained her. They have that in them by instinct. She guards the yard when I am not there but I can introduce new people that she will trust when I am not there. I could never have gone to the QM with a protection trained dog because they do not allow anyone else but you to feed them. It is tough enough to find someone willing to feed your animals when you are gone much less a dog that is very territorial and cannot be broken of the habit.
She is a great dog and has settled down quite a bit from when she was a pup. They really never do lose that boundless energy but it subsides a bit with age. I suppose they are bit like us in that way. I will have to see if she feel photogenic tomorrow.

Regards to all,

J

 

[scotrace]

Another Hobby of Mine

Is spotting breeds. Never stumped so far.

Pit Bulls are American Pit Bull Terriers. Could anyone here pick one out on sight?
Not American Bulldogs, or Victorian Bulldogs, Or Olde English Bulldogs, or Bull Terrier, or Staffordshire Bull terrier, or American Staffordshire Terriers, Nor Alapaha Blueblood Buldogs, or the old Bull-And-Terrier... all distinctively different.
So, what to ban?

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Many cities, municipalities and states are using the vague term "Pit Bull types" or "breeds with Pit Bull features" to get around true breed recognition. That leaves alot to interpretation by officials who may or may not have the knowledge to judge.

 

[Sefton]

This is another case of a few bad dog owners making things harder for the majority of (mostly) responsible ones. You can still have your pit bull but now it must be spayed or neutered. And no unlicensed breeders. I work in Golden Gate Park and encounter many dogs and their owners on a daily basis. Some don't leash or control their dogs. When you try to ask them to control their dogs you risk your safety sometimes (from the dog owners that is). I don't think that this particular ordinance is too extreme. They could have tried to ban the breed outright but didn't. We'll see if the "dog cartel" has the final bark on this one.

 

[K.D. Lightner]

Bob, you would probably know this, but I am wondering if it is possible to re-breed the dogs for gentleness.

I read some years ago that a few centuries ago, the most dangerous dog in England was the English bulldog, which had been bred for an ugly sport called bull baiting, in which a pack of bulldogs was turned loose on a bull.

The "sport" was outlawed and the dogs were considered so vicious that I believe it was considered a crime to walk a bulldog in the street without a muzzle.

The dogs almost became extinct. People who loved bulldogs began to breed them for their gentleness; today, those dogs are one of the sweetest natured.

I had a 5-pound chihuahua and I think, pound for pound, they are the nastiest breed. I loved my little guy, though, but had to keep him away from children and over-aggressive adults.

karol