Revitalization of Towns?

[Foofoogal]

I will start by asking here but may be another bar better suited. I would like to start a discussion on revitalizing older areas of towns. Basically is it a lost cost for some of them? I know some do it very successfully and some do not and wonder why or why not?

 

[Paisley]

Englewood, the suburb of Denver where I live, started to do this about 10 years ago, and I think they're doing a good job. What was once the largest shopping mall in the world went defunct. It was torn down and government buildings, retail, and condos were built in its place. One of the retailers was a WalMart, which seems to have a booming business here. Another major project was tearing down a large, defunct iron works and putting a transit system repair facility in its place. It really helped that Denver has been booming also, and that Colorado in general has low tax rates. Although housing has become pretty expensive here, it's still cheap compared to much of California, which is where a lot of people come from to live here.

On the other hand, I've read that some other cities are lost causes because there is no nearby industry and tax rates are too high.

 

[GoldLeaf]

Whew! That is an entire area of specialty within community planning. I think dissertations have been written on the subject lol My area of specialty is rural type planning, so I will pass. This should be a very interesting discussion. Just to double check, when you said "lost cost" did you mean "cause" or were you interested in the cost of revitalization?

 

[Foofoogal]

Yes, sorry. Lost cause. I am interested because I visit different cities and it seems some work and some don't. I would think you would have to start with great passionate people first. I visit alot of Chamber of Commerces when I travel and sometimes they have no clue. It is really sad and I wonder if the most important element would be communication on all parties involved.
Maybe I am gearing up for another chapter of my life as I find it extremely interesting. Goes along with my antiques business and interest. Recently also been reading the USA Today series on lead paint and stuff in older buildings so wonder if this will play a huge part in the green future thinking.
Not meant to be serious sober discussion but fun bar talk. Hopefully.

 

[Bebop]

When you say that in some places revitalization does not work, what do you mean?

I think the places that work well when revitalized, are the places that take into account the communities needs and desires and history. It seems many cities open the gates for inexpensive condos, McDonalds, WalMarts and huge supermarkets and call the area "revitalized". I think revitalization should include the restoration of the buildings not the removal of them. I have seen some cities that revitalize in order to house the lower income. I am sure they appreciate the revitalization efforts and believe they are succsessful even if the historic buildings have been torn down. There is a fine line there somewhere and I can't describe it very well but I know it when I see it.

 

[scotrace]

"We've got the revitalize the downtown!" is a mantra every election year in every medium/small town in the US.

Most, if the buildings aren't vacant, are now occupied by marginal "churches," (storefront tax write-offs), rotating crafty places (that start up and wink out three or four a year), and Dollar stores. We look at the photos of our downtowns up through the 60's (and many of us have first hand memories) and the streets are crowded with people and retail shopping. Why can't we do that again??!!! We've got to revitalize the downtown!

I'm no expert, but the hurdles and barriers are often almost insurmountable.

Most towns lost many of their buildings decades ago to fire or modernization. The opera and movie houses, diners, tobacconists and clothing stores that used to lure people downtown have been replaced by drive-in banks, large grocery stores (that required the clearing of whole city blocks to build), and blank parking lots.
The remaining buildings are often oddly chopped up and in disrepair. So what? Fix em!
Try it. You will immediately bump square into changed zoning regulations, code violations that must be fixed, and they must be brought into compliance with the Americans With Disabilities Act - a very expensive proposition. These are in addition to the problems and costs associated with restoring a 100+ year old building that saw decades of foot traffic that has weakened the underlying structure, especially after numerous remodel jobs which have likely hacked out load-bearing walls, making them creaky, sagging, heat-guzzling, inefficient and unsafe fire hazards. Try to get funding to fix all that.
Add broken sidewalks, general local disinterest, numerous bars and the fact that all the people are down by the freeway at the mall anyway, and you begin to see the enormity of the task.

It CAN be done. But it takes strong community support, someone who knows how to write grant applications (they get generally fat salaries, by the way), a historic "thing" for everyone to hang their hat on, and a whole lot of people who are willing to sit through hundreds of hours of fruitless and frustrating meetings. A local corporate sugar daddy is a plus.

A great example of success is the Spartantburg/Greenville, SC area. From a place that took more than a century to recover from The War of Northern Aggression to a restored, vital downtown area (a new BMW plant in the backyard didn't hurt), it is a great American success story. The people there are upbeat, proud , shrewd and deserve a hundred medals.

Any cheesehead running for City Council can squawk about downtown revitalization, but it's a large task needing a lot of support and organization.

And it's an inescapable fact that lives and patterns have changed. People used to gather downtown to chitchat with neighbors. They do that at the grocery store and the mall now.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Interesting question. I am involved, and have been involved for several years in the revitalization of an old neighborhood in Cleveland Ohio, near where I live. There are successes, and setbacks, but in the long run it does work. It is a matter of perseverance I think. A deciding factor also that I see, is that whenever creative people, artists and artisans of all types, can move into old, decrepit neighborhoods and start businesses and live and work in these places, it turns around quickly. I've seen it happen in one area of the city, and we are making it happen in another.
Grant money of course helps, but I think the deciding factors are the creative energy and the determination of those involved.

 

[SamMarlowPI]

this picture is very similar to what my downtown looks like. both sides are like this and stretch for about a half mile, but the dry, tan hillside in this pic is replaced with forest-y mountains for my town....it is quite a site...nice and homey and quiet

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ington-2.JPG/280px-Waitsburg-Washington-2.JPG

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

A local corporate sugar daddy is a plus.

A great example of success is the Spartantburg/Greenville, SC area. From a place that took more than a century to recover from The War of Northern Aggression to a restored, vital downtown area (a new BMW plant in the backyard didn't hurt), it is a great American success story. The people there are upbeat, proud , shrewd and deserve a hundred medals.

Any cheesehead running for City Council can squawk about downtown revitalization, but it's a large task needing a lot of support and organization.

Yes, true. Industry both large and small is needed to create jobs and give the local economy a shot in the arm. In the Tremont area of Cleveland, they have recently built a large strip mall on land adjacent to a down-sized steel mill which used to be the backbone of the local economy. This is a big step in the area's turnaround, and augments the efforts of smaller business owners, artists, and entrepreneurs.
A lot of support and real effort is also required of the city government, in particular, law enforcement. It is vital that law enforcement cracks down on the criminal element that makes these areas of cities so undesirable.

 

[happyfilmluvguy]

I've been told that in the 70's and 80's Hollywood, CA was very run down. They began revitalizing it in the late 80s by fixing up the Egyptian Theatre and eventually putting up a shopping mall at a major intersection. I don't know what it looked like when it was run down, but it doesn't look it now. My dad has told me that Colorado Blvd in Pasadena was really run down and not safe at all. Now it's a hot spot full of coffee shops, boutiques, upscale clothiers and restaurants. I couldn't see that street ever being run down, either.

 

[Lincsong]

Money, Money Money. The big barriers to "run down" downtowns are; regulations, high taxes, bureaucracy. Over in this little 'burg it takes a new restaurant about ONE YEAR to open up. Want to remodel your own house???? This town is 6-8 months. In other whack-job places it's 12 plus months if you're lucky.

 

[Atomic Glee]

(I tend to gush about my city - hopefully it's OK)

By the '70s, downtown Fort Worth had been reduced from a booming core to a virtual wasteland, like many downtowns across the country:

One prominent local family took a look at downtown Fort Worth, and saw not urban decay, but possibilities. They had the vision to see downtown, not as it was, but reborn as what it could be. So, in 1979 Bass Brothers Enterprises started buying land downtown - lot by lot, block by block. In partnership with the city, the Bass family reversed downtown's slide and today downtown Fort Worth is once again the vibrant, living core of the city. Not only the city's largest employment center, but also home to over 80 restaurants and bars, two movie theaters, three live theaters, a grand performance hall, and thousands of apartments, condos, and townhomes.

A lot of cities have tried to revitalize their downtowns and old neighborhoods, with varying levels of success. Downtown Fort Worth thrived thanks to a key insight into urban planning through the New Urbanism movement: it wasn't enough to offer an entertaining environment, or new highrise office buildings, or attractive places to live. It took all three of these things working in harmony, combined with proper urban design, historic preservation, and new traditional architecture, to succeed in revitalization. Smart urban planning, long-term dedication, and private/public partnerships have given the city back what the suburban flight took from it: a thriving, living downtown whose success in revitalization is now spreading to near-downtown neighborhoods such as the Cultural District and Fort Worth South.

Today:

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

That's an amazing transformation. :eusa_clap
I think one very important deciding factor is also in the quality of the businesses that are encouraged to move into these areas. Family friendly attractions and businesses will stand the test of time.
I could confidently predict that if a city relies solely on gambling casinos, strip joints, and bars to stimulate the economy, any "revitalization" based on vice would ultimately collapse. There is talk of bringing such to Cleveland's flats area. An area of old warehouses and factories along the river that were converted to bars and nightclubs and what have you. The area was booming back in the eighties, but by about 2000 or so, it's pretty much fizzled out due to the sleazoid criminal element that the area attracted.
Plans are in the works now to transform one entire bank of the river into condos, shopping, and hopefully more wholesome entertainment.

 

[Twitch]

It's a matter of what the existing tax base will be able to carry in most circumstances. All these "downtown" areas we hold in out in our foggy memories as something special most likey never were that special relative to all things.

The true question is, is anyone from the suburbs going to pour into the revitalized downtown and abandon their malls and L-shaped neighborhood corner strip stores?

If it is going to take money from the public fund or additional moneys raised by elevating property taxes or bond issues will alienate the citizens in most cases.

Long Beach is a prime example of a city with a downtown lost forever in a warped twilight zone. They have been attempting to "revitalize" the downtown area since the 60s when bums and panhandlers thrived there.

There have been ongoing missed targets of what they shoud do. I've seen huge areas torn down that were replaced by a massive mall which never was patronized by those suburbanites enough to make profit. That was torn down and over time revolving faces of the area reminds me of watching from a time machine as building went up and down.

They tried building a bunch of upscale restaurants at the water line and I can't say whether they were fabulously successful since most ended up being chain locations that you could eat at closer to home.

Factor in the Queen Mary mometary disaster sagas about 5 years after every new owner vows to fix everything but goes broke and we begin to see cartoon characters.

Of course none of this helped any of the retired that live down there. The city has gone up and down in retired population in the downtown area depending on what apartment buildings became condos or became retiree ones.

Lately its building condos for the yuppies all over what once was the Pike of the Golden Age which was basically a permanent carnival and local independent small businesses.

Considering the bizarre way Long Beach has gone I'd just as soon that the Navy was based here again and you could go on the ferris wheel and get a tatoo.

The residents of long Beach have become so weird that they are against Wal-Mart/K-Mart strores and are fighting against a Home Depot. All these stores operate successfully and bring in $$ and taxes to the surrounding cities.

So what's the point to this rambling? Be careful what you wish for. You'd better have an ironclad plan without reaching into my pocket. Is there any REAL interest in vintage building refurbishment beyond your tiny but dedicated group? And remember EVERY old building in a revovation district is not worth saving owning that it is not unique in architecture or historically important. If you're dedicated to "revitalization" be patient as it will take a lot of time, maybe decades depending on city funds.

 

[Paisley]

Atomic Glee said:

One prominent local family took a look at downtown Fort Worth, and saw not urban decay, but possibilities. They had the vision to see downtown, not as it was, but reborn as what it could be. So, in 1979 Bass Brothers Enterprises started buying land downtown - lot by lot, block by block. In partnership with the city, the Bass family reversed downtown's slide and today downtown Fort Worth is once again the vibrant, living core of the city. Not only the city's largest employment center, but also home to over 80 restaurants and bars, two movie theaters, three live theaters, a grand performance hall, and thousands of apartments, condos, and townhomes.​

That sounds like downtown Denver. A private group saved a lot of old warehouses from being torn down--and now those warehouses are high-end lofts. However, there's a time to scrape and build anew. People's habits have changed since the 40s and 50s and architecture has to reflect that. To replace a beautiful old building with a parking lot might horrify us, but if you're paying $15 per day to park, or walking five blocks from your car to the office, the parking lot might look better to you.

Another part of this is law enforcement. People won't come downtown, let alone move there, if they're afraid of the crime.

 

[Paisley]

Here's an article from City Journal about failed attempts to revitalize Buffalo, New York.

 

[Foofoogal]

someone who knows how to write grant applications (they get generally fat salaries, by the way),

I think this is the part I am considering. Not for the pay but the interest solely in how it works. My sister used to do this for a college and also tap into alumni from this college for the college. Maybe I should ask her.
I am just speaking solely as an observer. I cannot understand why I see the cities it seems divided into 2 parts. You have a beautiful old downtown and then the city planners or someone starts a whole new town about 5 miles down the road and of course with the new stores everyone shops at the new places. The one element I see is like Nick Danger said is the criminal aspects. I don't care how pretty the old buildings have been redone if people don't feel safe. Wouldn't zoning laws ahead of revitalization take care of that partly. I know when I personally see strip joints, pawn shops or tattoo parlors it makes me personally leary about an area though I am sure many are ok with these. IMHO. I recently saw an antique mall right next to a strip joint. I know alot of little old ladies wouldn't dream.
Why can they not put the new with the old. It would be more successful I would think. I am sure alot of the old guards will not let it happen though and they hold out too long so it just happens anyway.
Galveston Texas Strand area has successfully been revitalized and it also was by alot of one mans efforts. George Mitchell poured alot of money into the issue and now they have Dickens on the Strand as well as Mardi Gras and other activities that keep it going.
It sounds like alot of you have been there and done that and that is extremely helpful info to me. Thank you. Sandy

 

[Foofoogal]

My area of specialty is rural type planning, so I will pass.

Goldleaf, what is this anyway? I am curious.

 

[dhermann1]

I saw that article about Buffalo. Having grown up in western New York, and being a Bills fan, it was very discouraging. Obviously the right conditions have to exist for a revival. And communities need to let go of the idea of going back to what they were. The Rust Belt will never be the manufacturing center of the world again, not ever. Cities that revitalize also reinvent, create a whole new economy. Almost always, the key is going up scale. By that I mean, creating jobs and industries that depend on higher levels of skill among the work force. This means focusing on education.
Allentown, PA famously reinvented itself as a center for outlet stores. But for every Allentown there will be several others that fail to adapt, and that's just a fact.

 

[Atomic Glee]

To replace a beautiful old building with a parking lot might horrify us, but if you're paying $15 per day to park, or walking five blocks from your car to the office, the parking lot might look better to you.

Another part of this is law enforcement. People won't come downtown, let alone move there, if they're afraid of the crime.

See, the tear-downs being replaced with parking lots (or cold, impersonal modernist architecture) is what helped speed the decline of most downtowns. People tried to make downtown more like the suburbs, with plenty of surface parking, etc. but that just doesn't work. Downtown isn't the suburbs, and shouldn't try to be like the suburbs.

Crime can be solved. It takes not only effective security, but proper urban design that respects the street, presents pedestrians with friendly ground-level retail, and constant human presence through ground-floor retail and occupied office and residential space above.

Downtown Fort Worth solved the security stuff two ways. The Fort Worth PD stepped up their presence, featuring officers on bikes and horseback. Meanwhile, the Bass family created a privately-run security force who patrol downtown on bike and on Segway. They handle many issues for the police, and are in fact very highly trained - and armed, just like the police. As time passed, the crime in downtown virtually disappeared. Today, it's one of the safest parts of the entire city. People actually drop their kids off in downtown Fort Worth and let them have fun, safe in the knowledge that DTFW is safer than most any mall you'll find, and a heck of a lot more interesting and engaging.