Reproduction Duplication

[Dinerman]

There were many leather jacket manufacturers in the 1920s-1950s, each with their own range of models. Each model had options, and changed year to year. Designs changed, hardware changed. What I'm getting at is there were a lot of unique designs made over the years which interest the people on this board.

And yet the vast majority of these are completely ignored by the makers of reproduction jackets, while companies reproduce the same handful of vintage jackets. Granted, there are differences manufacturer to manufacturer even within repros of the same style, but once you start researching what was made back then, you really start to notice how homogeneous all the reproductions are.

Is the demand for these styles based on safety? That is, because it's selling well by one manufacturer, other makers know there's a demand for a version produced by them? That reproducing a style no one else is making is a big financial risk?

Is it the herd mentality? That people in the vintage community all want to be individuals, but they want to be individuals together?

Are these jackets the most representative of what was worn in the era? Or are they the models which have the least period eccentricities so as to be palatable to people who are into leather but not into vintage?

Or are the styles commonly reproduced the best that era had to offer, and they're just so good everyone wants a piece?


This sprung up from the discussion in another thread of the mid-late 1930s Hercules
Rainbow Country
Aero (advertised as 1920s)
Kelso's planning a version

As an example, here are some of the reproductions of the shawl collared cossack jacket, popular with golfers in the '20s-early 1930s. I think most manufacturers are represented, so please don't think I'm singling anyone out.

Himel
Levis
Aero
Alexander
Kelso
Thedi
Norshor

 

[handymike]

Don't forget that Mister freedom is also doing the shawl collar button up.
Diamond Dave as well with the Hyklas.

 

[Worf]

I think Herd Mentality is correct. The Shawl Collared Cossack can be made from smaller pieces of leather but is not THAT much more labor intensive than making an A2 or A1. It provides a good mark-up price wise and generally doesn't come in heavy hide so it's easier to work with. Plus I guess they sell.... so what's not to like? VERY interesting topic. What design do you feel is being ignored that YOU'D like to see done?

Worf

 

[Edward]

There were many leather jacket manufacturers in the 1920s-1950s, each with their own range of models. Each model had options, and changed year to year. Designs changed, hardware changed. What I'm getting at is there were a lot of unique designs made over the years which interest the people on this board.

And yet the vast majority of these are completely ignored by the makers of reproduction jackets, while companies reproduce the same handful of vintage jackets. Granted, there are differences manufacturer to manufacturer even within repros of the same style, but once you start researching what was made back then, you really start to notice how homogeneous all the reproductions are.

Intersting point. It's certainly true. I think since Ken came back to Aero he's (re)introduced a lot of that sort of variation - must be now approaching double figures in halfbelt models, each with slight differences from the others. Sticks out as unusual, though.

Is the demand for these styles based on safety? That is, because it's selling well by one manufacturer, other makers know there's a demand for a version produced by them? That reproducing a style no one else is making is a big financial risk?

Could be that in part, I suppose. Whereas Sears were dealing with mass market fashion and so varying the patterns year on year was, as ever, one way of pulling in new custom (even if people viewed their clothes as less "disposable" then than fashion-wear in 2014), the likes of Aero these days are playing to a very different, much more niche market which does tend to have set ideas about what it wants. That said, look at the popularity of the newer Aero models - it's not as fixed a market as all that.

Is it the herd mentality? That people in the vintage community all want to be individuals, but they want to be individuals together?

"We are all individuals!"

"I'm not."



Maybe an element of that.

Are these jackets the most representative of what was worn in the era? Or are they the models which have the least period eccentricities so as to be palatable to people who are into leather but not into vintage?

It'd be interesting to hear from vendors how their customers fall. There are certainly a lot of folks who are interested in the military repro stuff, but don't wear anything else of vintage style or design. I see much less of this on the civilian side, but it is certainly there.

I think in part the jackets that become popular are ones that have have some iconic look to them. I'd say more people buy a Perfecto style because of Jimmy Dean, or Brando, or even Joey Ramone than because they want a specifically period look. I wonder whether a lot of the most popular jackets are so because they resemble one from a well-known film of some sort. I suspect if we were being honest, an awful lot of folks who like A2s might never have been fired up over them but for Steve McQueen...

Or are the styles commonly reproduced the best that era had to offer, and they're just so good everyone wants a piece?

I think there's definitely an element of that - if it ain't broke and people want to buy it.... hence the proliferation of A2 repro makers (though that's a market I think may well be saturated at this point).

This sprung up from the discussion in another thread of the mid-late 1930s Hercules
Rainbow Country
Aero (advertised as 1920s)
Kelso's planning a version

Does seem like a case of looking around to see what's popular and going there. Of course, part of that is the nature of the market. Given these designs are now historical, unless they've done an "inspired by" which is distinctive enough to be protectable as a look now under design right (which here in the UK runs for 10-15 years - http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/design/d-about/d-designright.htm.) The Indy jacket could have qualified back in the day, anyone can make jacket that looks the same now (though they could still be done for TM infringement if they actually applied Indy's name or any associated mark owned by Lucasfilm et cetera in the sales blurb. Of course, an individual company's patterns can still be protected in copyright, so if somebody got hold of the patterns that, say, BK use for their M422a and copied those to make their own, although BK have no right to control the design, they could go after that person for infringement of the copyright in their patterns.

Which is all a very roundabout way of saying that because noone can "own" these historical designs, there's nothing to prevent arival company from saying "Oh, that's popular - I'll do that one too". In the market for modern stuff, they have to be a bit more careful about that (though of course it goes on all the time as designer looks get ripped off by the high street).

As an example, here are some of the reproductions of the shawl collared cossack jacket, popular with golfers in the '20s-early 1930s. I think most manufacturers are represented, so please don't think I'm singling anyone out.

Himel
Levis
Aero
Alexander
Kelso
Thedi
Norshor

That's an excellent example. I don't think anyone (unless maybe some of the internal market, high-end Japanese labels) was doing this design before Himel; other companies, Aero first, I think, obviously saw the market potential for a lot of folks who loved the design but maybe didn't have the spondulicks for the Himel jacket, which is at the very top end of the price market for this niche, and got in on the act. AL 's website no longer shows it, but they produced an initial go at this which was widely slated because folks felt they got the shawl collar wrong, so the company went back and rejigged their pattern un til it looked "right", like all the others and, of cours,e the originals. None of them owe each other anything because none of them can exercise ownership over the design, though of course they all have to come up with their own model names / trademarks (my professional opinion is that BK are on very dubious territory re trademark infringement by using the name "Aeronaut", given how closely that resembles the Aero mark , and its use for goods in an identical category). Similarly, Schott can't touch anyone who produces a Perfecto style jacket, but only Schott are entitled to use the Registered Trade Marks Schott and Perfecto.

 

[Edward]

Thinking about this some more.... I've really enjoyed seeing Aero bring some new designs to the table in the last couple of years, with the proliferation of new halfbelt models and so on. I don't think there's anything I'm aware of in terms of vintage leather styles that I'd like to see that nobody makes. Obviously, though, there are some styles that everybody and their grandmother is producing. While in many ways I'd like to see a bit more of different places developing their own house style instead of following the market, you've got to be realistic too. No point developing a unique product that nobody wants. I suppose the big benefit of a model like the Simmonds Bilt that so many reproduce is that they'll all do it slightly differently, different leathers, linings, and so on, which means one is much more likely to find the variation that is just right, and one can also have more free choice to find the model one wants from the brand one prefers.... As with any niche market, customer service is extremely important, and many of us will develop a sense of 'brand loyalty' based on who we find easiest to work with / best value / whose approach we prefer, and so on. All the surrounding factors that influence consumer choice without being directly associated with the product itself. It may also be that with so many competitors doing "the same thing", it pushes the best to really differentiate their product by making it just that bit better.

 

[handymike]

I agree that the cossack's resurgence is most likely due to the beautiful Heron designed by D Himel. To this day, his still blows the others away IMHO. It is natural that when you create a "signature" anything that others want to jump in and profit.....

Hindsight and history really allow us to step back and view things through various lenses. 80 years later, we are lucky to be able to put together a Greatest Hits collection from all the jackets that we can find out there.
If I were designing for a manufacturer, I know which 5 I'd go with....

 

[Seb Lucas]

I'm not particularly interested in period items it just happens that the only leather jackets I like were originally patterned in the early 20th century. I also like good quality. But I will only pay so much and I am not consumed by accuracy.

I am also deeply conservative - I want as few pockets, zips, flaps or buttons as possible, so a half-belt or cafe racer are my go to designs. I do not like, for instance, the Sunburst back design which to me is too showy or attention seeking and I have yet to see a Cossack style I like. I don't like those little cargo pockets or lots of buttons and they tend to look shapeless. As a customer that makes it easy for me as I have far less to choose from. I have come around to the Highwayman but it does irritate me that it has that belt running around the bottom. One piece leather would suit me more.

 

[andyfalzon]

If I may answer that, we have many wonderful styles in mind and we like developing new designs because it's a very creative process that we love. However, introducing new styles requires investment and involves financial risks. We are a small boutique specializing in vintage clothing, not some multinational company which whatever design they put out will sell anyway.

We will consider to release a version of a jacket someone else already does if we think that we can produce a more accurate version of that jacket than what is already out there. Otherwise, why bother to make something worse? That's the way we see it.

That said, we have the capacity of re-creating almost any jacket style the customer wants and we generally accept such custom orders.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

So BK is a Sponsoring Affiliate again? Will you be reopening your Affiliate thread or just mainly advertising on other threads..?
HD

 

[handymike]

I am also deeply conservative - I want as few pockets, zips, flaps or buttons as possible, so a half-belt or cafe racer are my go to designs. I do not like, for instance, the Sunburst back design which to me is too showy or attention seeking and I have yet to see a Cossack style I like. I don't like those little cargo pockets or lots of buttons and they tend to look shapeless. As a customer that makes it easy for me as I have far less to choose from. I have come around to the Highwayman but it does irritate me that it has that belt running around the bottom. One piece leather would suit me more.

Seb, I think you might enjoy the Lost Worlds Suburban.

 

[Sir Jacket]

I'll happily admit that I got my A2 in good part because of Steve McQeen. Sadly I've discovered I don't look as cool as him, nor does my jacket look as cool as his. I need a war. SJ

 

[thor]

I'll happily admit that I got my A2 in good part because of Steve McQeen. Sadly I've discovered I don't look as cool as him, nor does my jacket look as cool as his. I need a war. SJ

I think Steve has us all beat in the "coolness" department; and his A-2 was an original (Roughwear, I believe). "The Great Escape" (and McQueen's Virgil Hilts character) certainly struck a chord in popular culture that still resonates today.

 

[Sir Jacket]

Ah, thanks Thor. I didn't know it was original. He had some help in being so cool, then. SJ

 

[Otter]

Ah, thanks Thor. I didn't know it was original. He had some help in being so cool, then. SJ

Still a great movie and that jump makes it as one of the best all-time movie scenes IMO.

 

[Sloan1874]

This one, I think: http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/a2_rw27752.html

 

[repo]

I think Steve has us all beat in the "coolness" department; and his A-2 was an original (Roughwear, I believe). "The Great Escape" (and McQueen's Virgil Hilts character) certainly struck a chord in popular culture that still resonates today.

Here's a short article about the real life pilot who inspired the character - a squadron leader at 23 and awarded the DFC at 22!

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Hun...-Williams-visits-RAF-Wyton-20140408171202.htm

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Herd mentality of the customers- which leads to manufacturers taking less risks.

I have to say the leather jacket threads in the FL are quite telling. If a jacket is too different people will complain in a most annoying manner. For example if short jackets are shunned as "effeminate" it would make no sense to make more 30s and 20s reproductions. If I had a leather jacket company I propably wouldn't take the risk either.

Now if others should jump on the bandwagon if company made a sucessful design...I don't know. I think they should at least try to differentiate themselves from their competition (by that I don't mean joining internet fora and stating that their leather is the best).

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Maybe I came off as a bit harsh. Vintage suit guys are no better with their Palm Beach and beltback stuff. They are not really BETTER than other suits yet they have a cult status. Herd mentality.

What design do you feel is being ignored that YOU'D like to see done?

This is a good question. I read your vintage leather jacket blog but which one would you like to see as a repro?

 

[resortes805]

It seems that right now the button up cossack is simply the jacket that every reproduction line must carry; even curmudgeonly Lost Worlds has a version of their own (although it is buried on their "Limited Edition" page).

A few years back, every line had to offer their own version of a 1930s halfbelt, now it's the cossack's turn.

As much as we like to harp on how "classic style" is timeless, the truth is that our tastes are as just as subject to trends and fads as any other corner of the fashion world. I wouldn't call it a herd mentality, though. We draw inspiration from each other, but from other influences as well. In the 1990s it was all about vintage hawaiian shirts, and neo-swing inspired gabardine goodness. Now the dominant look is rough-around-the-edges selvedge denim and Depression era chambray.

One of the tricky things is, the diehard vintage enthusiasts represent a fraction of companies like Aero's customer base. Most of those folks can, and prefer, vintage jackets and turn to the reproduction lines for the hardest to find styles and variations (grizzlies, Himel bros A-1's etc). Most customers are like Seb Lucas: they like the look of the jackets and the quality, but aren't interested in looking like they stepped off of a movie set. As such, more standardized options and styles are tailored towards that type of customer.

What I like about some of the Japanese lines are the seasonal offerings of items in produced in limited runs. The downside is that once they are gone, they are gone. The upside is that it frees up a line's ability to offer more obscure designs.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I have a leather blazer like that one. So I actually like three styles of leather jacket, not two. Thanks Restortes.