Real McCoys fell off?

[WolfofStateSt]

This is an esoteric question, but I’ve noticed Real McCoys has kind of fallen out of favor recently. Do you guys think that overall, it’s probably better to go with Rainbow Country or Freewheelers for leather jackets now?

 

[Brandrea33]

I’m not sure they’ve fallen out of favour, but here in Canada the prices went bazerk … can‘t justify the cost anymore. That’s just my personal opinion of course.

 

[WolfofStateSt]

I think they are still top three for sure. They are still excellent jackets. I just don’t hear them being talked about as the best of best anymore.

 

[WolfofStateSt]

Which is also subjective I suppose; this is a subjective question I asked

 

[cbez]

Competition caught up in terms of quality and patterns, and their retail prices in the west are crazy.

Can still be nice second hand scores. But you're crazy if you're spending used car / several months rent prices on a jacket.

 

[Tom71]

Like others have said; the prices have become absurd lately. A bit like Rimowa after they were bought by LVMH. Once the prices multiply with the quality stagnating at best, it kind of becomes a question of principle for me.

That said, I have a leather and two cotton jackets from them, and they all are pretty great.

 

[Madhouse27]

Real McCoys is certainly still on my short list of elite jackets and I’ll probably get one at some point. I have a freshman in college so for the next three and a half years I’m going to just keep playing the in and out game with sub $1000 jackets. My only concern about waiting is if I’ll live long enough to break the thing in.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

McCoys is still excellent. If snatching, they've actually gotten better as they've improved a couple patterns. A major part of them being less discussed is indeed their pricing being so high in the west now. It wasn't as crazy in the past.

 

[Aloysius]

Can these kinds of things start going in the Ask a Question, Get an Answer about Outerwear thread?

Anyway, while they make a lot of good stuff, I think this bit highlights something that has mostly shifted on TFL and it's not RMC specific.

Real McCoys is certainly still on my short list of elite jackets and I’ll probably get one at some point.

At various points in TFL, we've fixated on a given brand or jacket as the halo product. It's happened with many brands and leathers over the years, with many members planning it as some kind of financial goal to get a jacket from the maker in question. These haven't only been Japanese, either. Field, Himel, and other Western makers have fit into this role too. In a sense, it's a bit like fashion trends, though much more niche. Microtrends?

To be perfectly clear, because assumptions are always made about my intentions: I am including myself in this observation.

But I think over the past few years, especially with the influx of some really impressive vintage collections from Tony, Marc, jeo, Will, and others there has been a shift. People are seeing the value of these decidedly less fancy, yet impressive works of patterning and craft that have held up so long. It's also contributed to a re-evaluation of some of the old makers who are still in business using classic patterns, like Vanson, Cal, LL, Schott, Langlitz etc. Or indeed of newer (comparatively) makers that are on that same side of the sturdy over fancy approach like Johnson.

The conclusion of that has been that there really aren't any elite jackets. Once you hit the tier of quality jackets they're really on an even playing field.

 

[Zoro]

Being quite new to the game and having zero interest in RMC due to the price, I'm curious how much were their products back in the day for several of you to highlight how much the price increased? Even in Classifieds nowadays when something from them shows up is easily close to 2k USD.

 

[cbez]

Can these kinds of things start going in the Ask a Question, Get an Answer about Outerwear thread?

Anyway, while they make a lot of good stuff, I think this bit highlights something that has mostly shifted on TFL and it's not RMC specific.



At various points in TFL, we've fixated on a given brand or jacket as the halo product. It's happened with many brands and leathers over the years, with many members planning it as some kind of financial goal to get a jacket from the maker in question. These haven't only been Japanese, either. Field, Himel, and other Western makers have fit into this role too. In a sense, it's a bit like fashion trends, though much more niche. Microtrends?

To be perfectly clear, because assumptions are always made about my intentions: I am including myself in this observation.

But I think over the past few years, especially with the influx of some really impressive vintage collections from Tony, Marc, jeo, Will, and others there has been a shift. People are seeing the value of these decidedly less fancy, yet impressive works of patterning and craft that have held up so long. It's also contributed to a re-evaluation of some of the old makers who are still in business using classic patterns, like Vanson, Cal, LL, Schott, Langlitz etc. Or indeed of newer (comparatively) makers that are on that same side of the sturdy over fancy approach like Johnson.

The conclusion of that has been that there really aren't any elite jackets. Once you hit the tier of quality jackets they're really on an even playing field.

I agree with a lot of the post but can you define 'fancy'?

unrelated, I'm not a jacket PhD like some guys on here but none of the RMC I tried felt like a higher tier than any of the other quality brands. I've tried a lot of Japanese jackets but also some Schott, Johnson, Lost Worlds, Vanson.

 

[Aloysius]

I agree with a lot of the post but can you define 'fancy'?

unrelated, I'm not a jacket PhD like some guys on here but none of the RMC I tried felt like a higher tier than any of the other quality brands. I've tried a lot of Japanese jackets but also some Schott, Johnson, Lost Worlds, Vanson.

I basically agree with you. It's a good question; I think what I mean by 'fancy' more about portrayal than anything. I wasn't sure which word to use because it's not any one thing.

For example where the brand or fandom focuses on things like like stitch counts. If you've run a sewing machine including on leather, you know that it's a matter of your machine settings, not an indicator of quality one way or another.

Actually, maybe a good way to get what I mean is to look at Himel's marketing. NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING THIS AS AN ATTACK ON HIMEL. I only mention him in particular because his business grew out of this subculture, so his marketing focuses on those aspects that it prized especially in that period.

There are probably similar things in the Japanese language for the newer brands there that grew out of the enthusiast culture, but my Japanese isn't good enough to find those equivalents.

Also, as to your second point, I think the reason RMC in particular got perceived as the ne plus ultra of leather jackets is that they already sold high end jeans, shirts, and knits so people who crossed over from the general workwear space already knew the name and followed accordingly. I feel the same way as you, and I like a lot of their stuff. (Maybe not the Buco-branded t-shirts and underwear lol.)

 

[cbez]

I guess I disagree on the characterization of vintage as some rustic return to basics.

The higher quality 'golden age' jackets had a lot of effort into patterning, construction, and materials. Some of the surviving leather is on par with anything coming out today. And there was more innovation in design and less riffing in classics. I think of them like 60s cars, in some ways the peak of American design, excess etc when we had a commanding lead in manufacturing and people just had a free hand to make cool stuff.

Then you get into cost cutting, shitty molded plastic dashes, malaise era, crappy 70-80s leathers, uninspired mall jackets.

 

[Aloysius]

I guess I disagree on the characterization of vintage as some rustic return to basics.

The higher quality 'golden age' jackets had a lot of effort into patterning, construction, and materials. Some of the surviving leather is on par with anything coming out today. And there was more innovation in design and less riffing in classics. I think of them like 60s cars, in some ways the peak of American design, excess etc when we had a commanding lead in manufacturing and people just had a free hand to make cool stuff.

View attachment 665546 Then you get into cost cutting, shitty molded plastic dashes, malaise era, crappy 70-80s leathers, uninspired mall jackets.
View attachment 665547

I'm not presenting vintage as such at all, nor would I lump in the 50s and 60s with 70s oil crisis malaise.

My point is actually exactly what you're saying. I'm just emphasizing the fact that people buying vintage does not come with the same 'packaging' for lack of a better word than the TFL hype brands used to.

 

[Madhouse27]

Can these kinds of things start going in the Ask a Question, Get an Answer about Outerwear thread?

Anyway, while they make a lot of good stuff, I think this bit highlights something that has mostly shifted on TFL and it's not RMC specific.



At various points in TFL, we've fixated on a given brand or jacket as the halo product. It's happened with many brands and leathers over the years, with many members planning it as some kind of financial goal to get a jacket from the maker in question. These haven't only been Japanese, either. Field, Himel, and other Western makers have fit into this role too. In a sense, it's a bit like fashion trends, though much more niche. Microtrends?

To be perfectly clear, because assumptions are always made about my intentions: I am including myself in this observation.

But I think over the past few years, especially with the influx of some really impressive vintage collections from Tony, Marc, jeo, Will, and others there has been a shift. People are seeing the value of these decidedly less fancy, yet impressive works of patterning and craft that have held up so long. It's also contributed to a re-evaluation of some of the old makers who are still in business using classic patterns, like Vanson, Cal, LL, Schott, Langlitz etc. Or indeed of newer (comparatively) makers that are on that same side of the sturdy over fancy approach like Johnson.

The conclusion of that has been that there really aren't any elite jackets. Once you hit the tier of quality jackets they're really on an even playing field.

Since you decided to elaborate on my use of the word elite, please let me clarify what I meant by it. Pecking order and reputations aside, I was mostly trying to indicate the higher end of the price spectrum without talking about money…primarily because I was talking about finances in the following two sentences. But in addition to the higher price tag, I guess I have a perception that there are tiers to this thing just as there are with various brands of vehicles, instruments, boots, televisions…you name it. Usually as you move up in price, there is a corresponding upgrade in quality, performance etc.

Better is a funny thing. Do I think a custom RMC would be “better” than my off the rack Schott 613sh or ELMC Road Star (at two or three times the price)? The expectation would have to be yes or no one would ever buy one. At the same time, we’ve seen people lay out some serious dough for a custom jacket and have it not meet expectations which will probably make me a little hesitant when it comes time to take the plunge. As somebody who’s spent most of his life on a Schott and Vanson budget, I don’t see anything wrong with dreaming about the big one though. In the meantime, I’ve got a pretty decent 641 coming and cool Lesco to sell.

 

[Aloysius]

But in addition to the higher price tag, I guess I have a perception that there are tiers to this thing just as there are with various brands of vehicles, instruments, boots, televisions…you name it. Usually as you move up in price, there is a corresponding upgrade in quality, performance etc.

And this is what I'm suggesting we've broadly moved past. It isn't inherently the case (in any field) but especially in the case of some fashion brands the price is determined by desired market positioning or in the case of Japan a distributor network where every layer is supposed to get a share.

 

[Hoanglong]

In my opinion, rainbow country's shinki horse leather is better than the new buco.

 

[Madhouse27]

And this is what I'm suggesting we've broadly moved past. It isn't inherently the case (in any field) but especially in the case of some fashion brands the price is determined by desired market positioning or in the case of Japan a distributor network where every layer is supposed to get a share.

Yes, you can certainly pay for just a brand name. The industry that I work in creates products for the various price points within the market. The prices have very little to do with actual production costs….its all marketing and product placement. That said, I find when purchasing from manufacturers that have kind of a single purpose, the old saying “you get what you pay for” often still rings true. We’re primarily talking about the 20 most reputable leather jacket producers on Earth here in the TFL forums. I like hearing about how people think RMC compares to its competitors at both the top of the price spectrum and even a notch or two below it. Like with all purchases, does the service and quality still justify the price?

 

[Marc mndt]

I like hearing about how people think RMC compares to its competitors at both the top of the price spectrum and even a notch or two below it. Like with all purchases, does the service and quality still justify the price?

Their zippers are really low quality, they sometimes cut costs by using panels that have blemishes, some of their patterns aren't great.

Here on TFL we talk about RMC jackets like they're something really special. But in Japan they really aren't. Every big city has a RMC store which carries dozens and dozens of j24s j100s A2s or what have you. It's like walking into a Schott store in the US.

 

[cbez]

Their zippers are really low quality, they sometimes cut costs by using panels that have blemishes, some of their patterns aren't great.

Here on TFL we talk about RMC jackets like they're something really special. But in Japan they really aren't. Every big city has a RMC store which carries dozens and dozens of j24s j100s A2s or what have you. It's like walking into a Schott store in the US.

They do seem to hold their value really well on the japanese second hand market. Only the J-100 tends to get down to lower prices.