Probably an embarrassing question about jacket weight...

[Formeruser012524]

Dear Fedora Lounge,

This might be (and probably is) an embarrassing question coming from - more or less - a leather amateur. A few weeks ago I had two jackets custom made. Both are from the same exact same type of steerhide.

The first jacket's thickness was supposed to be around 0,9 mm, and the second jacket slightly, perhaps insignificantly thicker, at 1,0 mm. However, this second jacket's measurements are different, resulting in a much larger jacket overall. Chest width, hem width, arm hole and sleeve length are all larger.

After having received both jackets, I realized that the 2nd one, which is supposedly thicker but definitely larger, actually weighs around 200 grams less than the smaller one. In my amateur mind, it should be the other way around.

Nonetheless, an extremely noticeable difference is that the "larger but lighter" jacket is much, much more soft / supple / flexible, whereas the other one is very stiff and will take a longer time to break in and form properly. I don't really mind this weight difference, and I prefer the touch and "behavior" of the lighter/softer one, but I struggle to understand how this is possible. Talking with the manufacturer to get a proper answer did not help much, because it resulted in being told that this is normal and should just be ignored, maybe because the manufacturer knows that I am an amateur. They mentioned things that cutting pieces of the same leather will never have the exact same result, since some part will be more soft than the other, etc., but does the softness itself make the leather lighter in weight? So here comes the embarrassing question:

Is it possible (and if so, how) that a 0,1 mm thinner (0,9 mm thickness) and overall smaller jacket made from the same steerhide results in 200 grams more total weight than a 0,1 mm thicker (1,0 mm thickness) and overall bigger jacket?

Am I simply being fooled here, and perhaps the 2nd jacket is even thinner than the first, hence the "softness" I speak of? Unfortunately I do not have the proper tool(s) to measure the thickness, but if the answer to my question above is "no" or "very unlikely", then it may very well be that I just got a thinner jacket.

If someone's willing to help, I highly appreciate your input.

 

[Carlos840]

Dear Fedora Lounge,

This might be (and probably is) an embarrassing question coming from - more or less - a leather amateur. A few weeks ago I had two jackets custom made. Both are from the same exact same type of steerhide.

The first jacket's thickness was supposed to be around 0,9 mm, and the second jacket slightly, perhaps insignificantly thicker, at 1,0 mm. However, this second jacket's measurements are different, resulting in a much larger jacket overall. Chest width, hem width, arm hole and sleeve length are all larger.

After having received both jackets, I realized that the 2nd one, which is supposedly thicker but definitely larger, actually weighs around 200 grams less than the smaller one. In my amateur mind, it should be the other way around.

Nonetheless, an extremely noticeable difference is that the "larger but lighter" jacket is much, much more soft / supple / flexible, whereas the other one is very stiff and will take a longer time to break in and form properly. I don't really mind this weight difference, and I prefer the touch and "behavior" of the lighter/softer one, but I struggle to understand how this is possible. Talking with the manufacturer to get a proper answer did not help much, because it resulted in being told that this is normal and should just be ignored, maybe because the manufacturer knows that I am an amateur. They mentioned things that cutting pieces of the same leather will never have the exact same result, since some part will be more soft than the other, etc., but does the softness itself make the leather lighter in weight? So here comes the embarrassing question:

Is it possible (and if so, how) that a 0,1 mm thinner and overall smaller jacket made from the same steerhide results in 200 grams more total weight?

Am I simply being fooled here, and perhaps the 2nd jacket is even thinner than the first, hence the "softness" I speak of? Unfortunately I do not have the proper tool(s) to measure the thickness, but if the answer to my question above is "no" or "very unlikely", then it may very well be that I just got a thinner jacket.

If someone's willing to help, I highly appreciate your input.

Yes it is possible.
Different leathers are tanned differently.
CXL for example is packed with waxes and oils, and that adds weight. At equivalent thickness CXL will be heavier than a "dry leather" of esimilar thickness that isn't stuffed with waxes.

The weight difference could also be due to hardware (more zippers), or design, a cross zip will be heavier than a center zip jacket since it has more leather overlap.

Just realized you are the X files guy, is it anything to do with that project?


Pictures would definitely help.

 

[Formeruser012524]

Yes it is possible.
Different leathers are tanned differently.
CXL for example is packed with waxes and oils, and that adds weight. At equivalent thickness CXL will be heavier than a "dry leather" that isn't stuffed with waxes.

If the both your leathers feel the same to the touch, then there might be something weird going on...

Pictures would definitely help.

Thank you, Carlos840. The thing is, it is the same manufacturer and exactly the same type of steerhide. I am talking exactly the same, again, unless I wasn't being told the complete truth by the maker.

The lighter jacket feels about 5x softer to the touch, it is much, much less stiff, which is preferable to me, but I can't help but think that I simply got an even thinner jacket and there's no bigger mystery.

The lighter jacket is the same design/look, it is just larger, think going from L to XL, with supposedly 0,1 mm thicker leather... and weighing 200 grams less.

I know I should probably just enjoy it and stop thinking about it, but I'm really interested in learning what factors could influence this, or if I was simply fooled in regards to thickness. Perhaps the only way to find out is to have the thickness measured in the most proper way?

I'm not sure if pictures would help with this question at all, but please note that aside from that, I respectfully refuse to post pictures of my jackets publicly, because doing that has caused controversy on the forum a very long time ago. I intend to avoid anything similar from happening again, not only for myself, but also out of respect for the admins, mods, and every member participating here. It was a pretty big deal at the time so I will definitely not discuss it further, I just mentioned it so you aren't confused as to why I'm not posting pictures. Hopefully you'll understand.

 

[Formeruser012524]

... Just realized you are...., is it anything to do with that project?

Lol no, really nothing at all to do with that project, although the paragraph from my last thread relates to that, which is why we should refrain from discussing it. This was determined by moderators after the thread in question was closed.

And no, there is no additional hardware. It is exactly like I said, just like going from L to XL without any additional stuff.

Larger sleeves, bigger chest width, waist width, hem width, and supposedly 0,1 mm thicker overall.

But... softer and more flexible. And weighs 200 grams less.

 

[Aloysius]

The thing is, it is the same manufacturer and exactly the same type of steerhide. I am talking exactly the same, again, unless I wasn't being told the complete truth by the maker.

I realize that I’m probably making a mistake by engaging in one of these threads in good faith, but I will attempt it anyway for the benefit of anyone reading.

Leather is an organic material. It is literally the skin of an animal. Two cows could be siblings, whose hides were tanned at the same tannery, and the finished hide will still be different. We’re not talking about forging a piece of metal. We’re talking about the skin of an animal with all the variations that come with it.

 

[navetsea]

the total weight of the jacket as probably have been mentioned by others is the total package, leather + liner + zippers + snaps + buckle + studs and eyelets and also the size. also some type of leather that is infused with wax or oil like oil pull-up and perhaps cxl is heavier than dry leather (imagine wet jacket)

 

[navetsea]

I didn't aware the jackets being identical, in such case, on one jacket the leather fiber is denser, and on the other one that is lighter perhaps it is spongier, and do they use similar lining on both, no extra inner pocket or more/ bigger leather facing around the liner?

 

[Formeruser012524]

I didn't aware the jackets being identical, in such case, on one jacket the leather fiber is denser, and on the other one that is lighter perhaps it is spongier, and do they use similar lining on both, no extra inner pocket or more/ bigger leather facing around the liner?

Yes, they are identical, just the size is different, like I said, think of one and the same jacket going from L to XL. There is no extra inner pocket, no bigger leather facing around the liner, and it is also the same lining (cotton) on both.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[ChewingWax]

From what you describe, the jackets are made out of different kinds of leather. The stiff one is the heavy smaller one right? It just seems if one jacket is soft and one is stiff by definition they’re not made out of the same stuff.

 

[Formeruser012524]

I realize that I’m probably making a mistake by engaging in one of these threads in good faith, but I will attempt it anyway for the benefit of anyone reading.

I honestly haven't the slightest clue what this is supposed to mean, unless it's an attempt to remind people of issues from the past, and thus forcing the moderators to close/delete this completely harmless thread. If that was not your intention, then I sincerely apologize. But if it is, please keep in mind that I will not take the bait. Despite having responded to this one paragraph of yours just now, any future attempts of yours at provocation / digging up the past in order to stir up trouble will be ignored. This thread is totally harmless, and I have no problem admitting that the question itself might be totally stupid... but at the same time I did describe it as "probably embarrassing", so there you go. It might very well be a totally stupid question.

Leather is an organic material. It is literally the skin of an animal. Two cows could be siblings, whose hides were tanned at the same tannery, and the finished hide will still be different. We’re not talking about forging a piece of metal. We’re talking about the skin of an animal with all the variations that come with it.

Thank you very much. So your answer seems to agree with the others so far in the thread, which is "yes, it's possible".

What you wrote definitely makes sense.

 

[Aloysius]

But if it is, please keep in mind that I will not take the bait.

What? Clearly the point of my message was that there's a good chance this thread is bait, but that I'll answer anyway for the benefit of anyone who might be reading earnestly.

 

[Formeruser012524]

From what you describe, the jackets are made out of different kinds of leather. The stiff one is the heavy smaller one right? It just seems if one jacket is soft and one is stiff by definition they’re not made out of the same stuff.

They are advertised as exactly the same type of leather, but yes, the heavier smaller one is much more stiff. My initial theory was that the larger (but softer, and lighter) one was just thinner (even though I ordered thicker), and that this would be the reason... but now after what Aloysius wrote above, I have no problem accepting that as an explanation.

 

[Formeruser012524]

What? Clearly the point of my message was that there's a good chance this thread is bait, but that I'll answer anyway for the benefit of anyone who might be reading earnestly.

No bait from my side. No reason at all. Your explanation actually makes sense, and I appreciate it. So unless someone else has something to add, I can totally accept your explanation as the reason for the weight difference.

 

[ChewingWax]

Also, 200 grams isn’t very much. What ratio of the total weight of the jackets is that?

 

[ChewingWax]

Thank you, Carlos840. The thing is, it is the same manufacturer and exactly the same type of steerhide. I am talking exactly the same, again, unless I wasn't being told the complete truth by the maker.

The lighter jacket feels about 5x softer to the touch, it is much, much less stiff, which is preferable to me, but I can't help but think that I simply got an even thinner jacket and there's no bigger mystery.

The lighter jacket is the same design/look, it is just larger, think going from L to XL, with supposedly 0,1 mm thicker leather... and weighing 200 grams less.

I know I should probably just enjoy it and stop thinking about it, but I'm really interested in learning what factors could influence this, or if I was simply fooled in regards to thickness. Perhaps the only way to find out is to have the thickness measured in the most proper way?

I'm not sure if pictures would help with this question at all, but please note that aside from that, I respectfully refuse to post pictures of my jackets publicly, because doing that has caused controversy on the forum a very long time ago. I intend to avoid anything similar from happening again, not only for myself, but also out of respect for the admins, mods, and every member participating here. It was a pretty big deal at the time so I will definitely not discuss it further, I just mentioned it so you aren't confused as to why I'm not posting pictures. Hopefully you'll understand.

How in the world could posting photos of your jackets lead to a controversy?

 

[Formeruser012524]

Also, 200 grams isn’t very much. What ratio of the total weight of the jackets is that?

First jacket (stiffer, smaller): 2,10 kg
Second jacket (softer, larger, supposedly thicker): 1,90 kg

 

[Formeruser012524]

How in the world could posting photos of your jackets lead to a controversy?

It could be that you were not around at the time or are simply unaware. I have posted a thread on this forum a long time ago, which turned out to be one very long, but also, unfortunately, one of the most controversial and negative threads ever posted here, because as time went on it became filled with lots of animosity, ridicule, and overall negativity from all sides, including myself. The relevant parties (myself included) apologized to one another at the end, some publicly, some privately (and both), and to the moderators as well. The moderators closed the thread in question, and warned people explicitly not to link to it in other discussions in the future. For that reason, even though this jacket has nothing to do with the jacket from that "other" thread, posting pictures of this one still carries potential risks and "reminders" which I want to completely avoid, out of respect for the admins, mods, and overall Fedora Lounge community. Simply put: Many jackets I have custom made (including these two) do not align with what this forum / community stands for. Some of my jackets certainly do fit in here, but many of them would not, including these two with the weight difference question. The "other" thread turned out problematic for this reason, more or less. And I do not want nor need a repeat of it. Even though all this might sound confusing, I still hope you understand, and respect my decision.

 

[ChewingWax]

It could be that you were not around at the time or are simply unaware. I have posted a thread on this forum a long time ago, which turned out to be one very long, but also, unfortunately, one of the most controversial and negative threads ever posted here, because as time went on it became filled with lots of animosity, ridicule, and overall negativity from all sides, including myself. The relevant parties (myself included) apologized to one another at the end, some publicly, some privately (and both), and to the moderators as well. The moderators closed the thread in question, and warned people explicitly not to link to it in other discussions in the future. For that reason, even though this jacket has nothing to do with the jacket from that "other" thread, posting pictures of this one still carries potential risks and "reminders" which I want to completely avoid, out of respect for the admins, mods, and overall Fedora Lounge community. Simply put: Many jackets I have custom made (including these two) do not align with what this forum / community stands for. Some of my jackets certainly do fit in here, but many of them would not, including these two with the weight difference question. The "other" thread turned out problematic for this reason, more or less. And I do not want nor need a repeat of it. Even though all this might sound confusing, I still hope you understand, and respect my decision.

Sure. Sounds like a whole lot of drama! It was before my time.

 

[ChewingWax]

It could be that you were not around at the time or are simply unaware. I have posted a thread on this forum a long time ago, which turned out to be one very long, but also, unfortunately, one of the most controversial and negative threads ever posted here, because as time went on it became filled with lots of animosity, ridicule, and overall negativity from all sides, including myself. The relevant parties (myself included) apologized to one another at the end, some publicly, some privately (and both), and to the moderators as well. The moderators closed the thread in question, and warned people explicitly not to link to it in other discussions in the future. For that reason, even though this jacket has nothing to do with the jacket from that "other" thread, posting pictures of this one still carries potential risks and "reminders" which I want to completely avoid, out of respect for the admins, mods, and overall Fedora Lounge community. Simply put: Many jackets I have custom made (including these two) do not align with what this forum / community stands for. Some of my jackets certainly do fit in here, but many of them would not, including these two with the weight difference question. The "other" thread turned out problematic for this reason, more or less. And I do not want nor need a repeat of it. Even though all this might sound confusing, I still hope you understand, and respect my decision.

I went back and read this notorious thread. I see the problem.

 

[navetsea]

firmer leather can be caused by pressing the leather, so the thinner leather can be initially a thicker leather but processed through a pressing rolls to come out as 0.9mm while the other slightly thicker one but softer can be an non pressed leather that appear thicker but the inner structure is coarser/ looser fibers