Pls help me date this cutaway tail coat...

[Warbaby]

I found this vintage tail coat a couple of days ago and bought it despite the fact that it doesn't fit me. I'll prolly either eBay it or keep it for trading stock. It was made to fit someone very tall (6'2"-3") and thin (I wear a 40 and it's way tight on me - I'm guessing it's a 36, maybe 38).

It's in really pristine condition - no stains, even under the arms, no moth holes, no fading. It's made of a fine, lightweight wool with grosgrain or twill lapels and satin covered buttons. The lining is quilted in the chest. The armholes are very high and tight. Even though it's quite snug on me, I can raise my arms above horizontal and the rest of the coat still hangs perfectly.

There are no labels on it anywhere.

Are there period differences in the style of tail coats, or are they all pretty much the same?

 

[Chasseur]

I'm no help on dating it, but its an evening tailcoat for white tie and tails. Normally I've only heard the term 'cutaway' as the American term for morning dress tails for day wear.

PS: I wanted to say thanks again for your help with the opera glasses, I followed your instructions and they turned out great!

 

[Warbaby]

Glad to hear the opera glasses turned out well! Always happy to provide restoration advice - I was an objects restorer at the MMA back in the 70s and have a pretty strong knowledge base in the field.

 

[Orgetorix]

Chasseur is right, this is an evening dress coat, not a cutaway. As to date, it's hard to say because this style stayed relatively consistent for decades and decades. If I had to guess, I'd say '30s because of the lack of breast pocket and the shape of the lapels. But I could be very wrong; it could be earlier, and my '60s-dated coat looks much like that (plus a breast pocket).

 

[le.gentleman]

Chasseur is right, this is an evening dress coat, not a cutaway. As to date, it's hard to say because this style stayed relatively consistent for decades and decades. If I had to guess, I'd say '30s because of the lack of breast pocket and the shape of the lapels. But I could be very wrong; it could be earlier, and my '60s-dated coat looks much like that (plus a breast pocket).

Do you also have the pants for this suit? They might help to date it as well! At first glance, an evening tailcoats pretty much look the same, however there are many subtle differences. The gorge, the width of the lapel, the way the quarters are cut etc.
In Germany, it was popular to have your tailocat for white tie made without a breast pocket from about 1920-1914 since it was worn with a buttoniere and an additional pocket square would have been too much. However, I do not see a buttonhole in your lapel.
The gorge is very high and the lapels are wide which speaks for 20s to 30s to me. The corners of the tails are hardly rounded at all but I cannot put a date on that style...

Bear in mind that the bespoke client might have had certain ideas which were not in compliance with the fashion of that time...

You probably looked closely at all the pockets, didn't you? I once found a little note in one hidden topcoat pocket which contained a tiny letter which was dated to 12-31-1938...

 

[Tourbillion]

My boyfriend has a dated Victorian tail suit that has working buttonholes--that go all the way up the lapel. It also came with a black vest and pants. I know the black vest was normal then, not sure about the vestigial buttonholes.

Perhaps we can rule out Victorian for your tail coat? The lapels seem wide to me, so maybe 1930's suggested by the other posters is correct?

My boyfriend may have a later tail coat (1950's?) to compare to, I'll have to ask. (Maybe we can even get him to start posting under his own account.) I am pretty sure that the dated 30's one that he got rid of due to fit issues didn't look much like your coat though (if I recall correctly).

 

[anon`]

As has been mentioned, the white tie tailcoat has remained largely unchanged over the years, making dating the thing annoyingly difficult if the original tailor didn't bother to write the date on one.

The best reference, as far as I can tell, seems to be in the lapels, and while this jacket may not actually be pre-War, it sure looks like it. And that's what I'd tell anyone who asked

But your best bet is to look through the pockets and possibly even under any random flaps of fabric for either a union label or date tag. I suppose if you can be reasonably confident that the coat is American in make and are unable to find signs of a union label, you could argue that it's pre-36 (or pre-34?) at the very least.

 

[Warbaby]

Alas, there are no pockets, either inside or out, that might hide a label or union tag. And a careful search turned up no flaps or seams where a label might be tucked away.

And here's another question regarding classic formal wear - what's the difference, if any, between a morning coat and a frock coat? Or are they two terms for the same garment?

 

[Blackl3232]

A morning coat is cut away: http://www.knize.at/popup/p_stil/images/p_3_4.jpg

A frock coat is knee-length and not cut away: http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipe...pril_1904.jpg/350px-Frock_Coat_April_1904.jpg

 

[Warbaby]

Aha - now I understand. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Orgetorix]

And, to make things more confusing, during the period when morning coats were beginning to replace frock coats, they could be referred to as cutaway frock coats.

 

[Lokar]

To top things off, there exists both the frock coat, and the top frock - The latter looking mostly the same as a frock coat, but worn as an overcoat.