Nagasaki

[MrBern]

Nagasaki marks 61st anniversary of A-bomb
Wed Aug 9, 1:25 AM ET
TOKYO (Reuters) - The mayor of Nagasaki criticized Iran and North Korea for their nuclear programs and had harsh words for the United States for failing to halt nuclear proliferation as the Japanese city marked the 61st anniversary of its atomic bombing.

Elderly survivors, children and dignitaries bowed their heads at the city's Peace Park near "ground zero" for a moment of silence at 11:02 a.m. -- the moment when a U.S. bomber dropped the world's second atomic bomb on August 9, 1945.

Earlier, others attended masses at Urakami Cathedral in the city, home to many of Japan's tiny number of Christians.

The anniversaries of the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima three days earlier coincide this year with renewed concerns about nuclear programs by Iran and by North Korea, which last month jolted the region by firing a salvo of missiles.

"Voices of anger and frustration are echoing throughout the city," Nagasaki Mayor Itcho Ito told thousands of people gathered to mourn the more than 140,000 people known to have died.

"The time has come for those nations that rely on the force of nuclear armaments to respectfully heed the voices of peace-loving people, not least the atomic bomb survivors."

Ito also had harsh words for the United States and other nuclear powers for their failure to halt proliferation.

"The nuclear weapon states have not demonstrated sincerity in their efforts at disarmament. The United States of America in particular has issued a tacit approval of nuclear weapons development by India," Ito said.

"At the same time, nuclear weapons declarant North Korea is threatening the peace and security of Japan and the world as a whole.

"In fact, the very structure of nonproliferation is facing a crisis due to nuclear ambitions by various nations including Pakistan which announced its possession of nuclear arms, Israel which is widely considered to possess them, and Iran," Ito said.

In the closing days of World War Two, the United States dropped a 10,000-pound plutonium-239 bomb, nicknamed "Fat Man," on Nagasaki.

It exploded about 500 meters (1,600 feet) above the ground, instantly killing about 27,000 of the city's estimated population of around 200,000. By the end of 1945, the number of dead due to acute radiation exposure reached about 70,000.

The names of 2,831 people who died recently were added to the list of victims, bringing the total number recognized by the city to 140,144. A few thousand names are added each year.

Ito called on Japan to protect its postwar pacifist constitution and keep its pledge never to possess nuclear arms.

"Once again we call upon the Japanese government ... to ground itself in reflection upon history and uphold the peaceful intentions of the constitution," he said.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi ensured the world that Japan would maintain its pacifist constitution and non-nuclear policy.

"Japan, the only country that has suffered atomic bombings in human history, has the responsibility to keep telling the international community about its experience," Koizumi told the crowd.

Koizumi has stretched the limits of the U.S.-drafted constitution, sending non-combat troops to Iraq on the military's riskiest mission since World War Two. The troops have since pulled out.

Japan's ruling party and the main opposition party are also seeking to revise the constitution, whose Article Nine prohibits maintaining a military but has been interpreted as allowing armed forces solely for self-defense.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060809/ts_nm/japan_nagasaki_dc

 

[Andykev]

This is Pandora's Box

Those who ignore history, are condemned to repeat it.

The morality of dropping the atomic bombs on Japan during WWII have been argued, well, since that day. And each passing year, as the memory of WORLD WAR fades into grany black and white images some teacher made you watch in school.....many forget WHY it was dropped.

There were more deaths from the FIRE BOMBING by B-29's than by the atomic bombs. It is estimated that there would be ONE MILLION deaths from an invasion of Japan. Men cheered upon hearing this bomb was used, and thus ending the war, and sending them home.

Today, Iran, N. Korea......there is the threat. What are we prepared to do? How will the world view any nation using an atomic bomb, and why? Who throws the first stone?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

"The United States of America in particular has issued a tacit approval of nuclear weapons development by India," Ito said.

Yes! Scary.

India is less stable than meets the eye.

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[Dixon Cannon]

Which brough us here....

The Japanese government finally came to the correct conclusion that they could not continue fighting and they could not prevail. The TOTAL WAR which they initiated in the 1930' and which they invited us to participate in 1941 came to a dramatic and decisive conclusion on this day.

Humbled and beaten, the Japanese government gathered to admit utter and complete defeat in a campaign to dominate Asia. The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere collapses. Thank God!

-dixon cannon

 

[scotrace]

Let's Not.

MrBern, thank you for quoting this article out for us. Even 60 years on, the events of the Second World War can arouse our passions and anger, on both sides.

I think this day that marks the anniversary of the deaths of so many, regardless of the country in which they happened to be standing, is probably best a time of prayerful hope that such widespread and consuming warfare is behind us. Uncomprehensible millions died during The War; let us remember them all without the rancor that brought about their violent deaths.

I hope we won't debate (or, actually, redebate) the decisions President Truman made in 1945, here.

 

[Terry Lennox]

Today, Iran, N. Korea......there is the threat. What are we prepared to do? How will the world view any nation using an atomic bomb, and why? Who throws the first stone?

The days of an ATOMIC bomb are long gone. A much more powerful weapon is here today.

And why must a stone be thrown in the first place?

As you said, Those who ignore history, are condemned to repeat it.

 

[Big Man]

... In the closing days of World War Two, the United States dropped a 10,000-pound plutonium-239 bomb, nicknamed "Fat Man," on Nagasaki...

It only became "the closing days" AFTER the bomb was dropped (and immediatly after, I might add).

The United States gets condemned for using the bomb on Japan; but just think if Japan (or Germany) had developed the capability before we did. What would the world be like today?

 

[TM]

The book: Japan's Longest Day was written by the Japanese not long after the war. All the major participants, except for the Emperor and those who either committed suicide or were executed, were interviewed. It demonstrates conclusively the necessity of dropping two nuclear weapons in order to end the war.

The book can be found on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/4770028873/002-9906581-0279266?v=glance&n=283155

There was also a fine motion picture made, again by the Japanese, on this very subject: The Emperor and The General:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0062041/

Tony

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

Thanks, Tony! I'll take a look at that book.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

... just think if Japan (or Germany) had developed the capability before we did. What would the world be like today?

It would be an even more intolerant place than it is now. Whole races and ethnic groups would be enslaved or dead. The rest of us would be "reeducated". Think of Cambodia under Pol Pot.

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[Andykev]

I agree

The days of an ATOMIC bomb are long gone. A much more powerful weapon is here today.

Yes, I know that the kiloton yield of the Hydrogen bomb is far greater than that of the mere "atomic bomb"...I perhaps should have used the word "Nuclear Weapon", which theoretically can include a "dirty bomb". It is the use of the "N" word...nuclear.

And why must a stone be thrown in the first place?

That was merely a reference to whomever throws the first nuke in the next world conflict. Will it be the USA in response to an attack, or support of another nation, ie. Israel? Or will a rouge state or established nation pop off Armageddon?

As you said, Those who ignore history, are condemned to repeat it.

Yes, indeed.

 

[Mojave Jack]

The book: Japan's Longest Day was written by the Japanese not long after the war. All the major participants, except for the Emperor and those who either committed suicide or were executed, were interviewed. It demonstrates conclusively the necessity of dropping two nuclear weapons in order to end the war.

Tony, you make a very important point that really puts the US's use of nuclear weapons into perspective. The arguments against using them in a populated area was that bombing a more remote island or area would serve as a sufficient demonstration of the power of the weapon. Truman used the intelligence at his disposal to determine that such a demonstration simply would not be effective and would not bring about Japan's capitulation. The fact is that the US went to great lengths throughout the war to avoid unnecessary collateral damage, up to and including continuing daylight precision bombing in Europe in the face of overwhelming casulty rates (until the P-51 came along, of course). Though it cost many thousands of civilian casulties, it is vital to recognize that he made that decision to save American lives in the mainland invasion that was imminent, and which was the only other course of action that would have ended the war. There is simply no circumstantial parallel in the world today, and really nothing that could not be easily hnadled through conventional means.

I haven't read that book, but thanks for posting the title; I'll certainly look for it.

 

[Twitch]

I extensively researched and wrote a long 4 part article involving the invasion scerarios of the day. There were tons of dialogues amongst the planners of the invasion that spelled out exactly what their concerns were and why they made certain estimates of morbidity. The casuality figures of any estimate conservative or very high are sobering. This goes for both sides. As Big Man said it wasn't known then that the war was almost over in early 1945. Hindsight is great but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that it is wrong to apply today's sensibilities and values to any event of the past.

 

[LaMedicine]

What am I supposed to say about this? Opinions can be said no end, but there is only one truth. The atomic bomb was used twice and the result was devastating. It is something that should never be used again, but as an international society are any of us doing something that is effective?

I for one, would not be here today had "Fat Man" been dropped on its primary target city, Kokura, which was overcast on that day. The bomber changed direction and headed for Nagasaki. My father (who died at 85, exactly one month before this years' Hiroshima Memorial) at that time was in Kokura. I asked him once about the bombs and he replied that the general public was starting to realize that despite the public announcements, Japan was losing the war. The numerous air raids daily were wearing the average civilian down. He also said the A bombs were the clincher to that realization.
What the average citizen was exposed to, and thought, in comparison to the leaders of the country would not have been the same. Families with loved ones in the warfields, women working jobs that men were doing before, rations, collecting and submitting metals to the government. There was a lot of oppression, and fear of the special police who imprisoned many innocents on political charges. Art was decadant, and fit to be charge with treason, other than those that depicted military victory and raised the morale. Music was decadant, except for the military marches and songs composed to raise the (military) morale. The people were taught that the "Western Devils" will "disgrace" all women (and keep in mind, in many cultures, such shame can only be redeemed by death) and shame will be brought on the family, so even the women must fight them to the very last if ever there was an invasion. The political atmosphere in these days were opressive by present day standards, but when you have lived for years trying to survive under such conditions, the only way to survive is to succumb to the insanity, and close off certain parts of your mind.

Oops, got kind of off topic, but...
There are too many in the world who toy with the idea of the ultimate weapon which infuriates those who have experienced either Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and such was the ire at the root of the mayor's speech.

 

[scotrace]

Very Well Said

Thank you very much for an excellent and fascinating insight, LaMedicine. Just the sort fof input I was hoping this thread would see.

The Fedora Lounge is an amazing, international community and I hope it becomes moreso.








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[Marc Chevalier]

The Fedora Lounge is an amazing, international community and I hope it becomes moreso.

As opposed to morose?

But seriously, it is wonderful to have a diverse group of people who have something (or someplace) in common: this forum. Homogeneity would make for a very anemic Fedora Lounge.

.

 

[TM]

Mojave Jack,

You might also be interested in reading "Government by Assassination"

It's available at Alibris:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=61828160&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26y%3D7%26tn%3DGovernment%2Bby%2Bassassination%26x%3D22

This book describes the pre-war build up to the war. It follows the increasing use of murder as a tool of the military to silence those politicians who disagreed with them. A situation that continued right to the very end.

LaMedicine describes the oppressive atmosphere amongst the population at large, but that oppression also existed at the top too. Moderates were being killed to prevent the surrender. There was even an attempt to “protect” the Emperor – by force of arms – to prevent the broadcast of his surrender speech.

While the passage of time affords a dispassionate distance, it also removed the immediacy of the situation at the time. This is one reason why I like reading period literature, it really captures the Mise-en-scene of the period.

Tony

 

[LaMedicine]

There was even an attempt to “protect” the Emperor – by force of arms – to prevent the broadcast of his surrender speech.

While the passage of time affords a dispassionate distance, it also removed the immediacy of the situation at the time.

That's very well known here, there's been countless TV programs of the making and recording of his speech, and how it was hidden from the military top until the moment of its broadcast.
In the end, it was only the select few who were bent on continuing the war at the cost of the rest of the Japanese population. And it angered Emperor Hirohito that these very people were enshrined at the Yasukuni Shrine, which is right now a thorn in our foot. Never again did he pay homage to the shrine after this. There are some politicians who publicly dispute the legitimacy of the Tokyo Tribunals, but even that is offending to the majority of the Japanese, actually. What was done, was done, and even if some consider some of the trials as unfair, the truth is, we did do a lot of damage to our neighboring nations and their people.
And as you say, time puts a lot of things into perspective.

Still the point of the speech by the mayor of Nagasaki is that the people of Nagasaki and Hiroshima are angry and saddedned by the fact that too many fool around with grandiose dreams of power and the ultimate weapon, and the citizens of the two cities believe that they are the only ones who can rightly and rightfully raise their voices against such arrogance. The average age of the survivors of the bombs are something like 74, and they are feeling that their time is running out, and their voices are not heard as much as they would like. Their keenest wish is a world completely devoid of nuclear weapons, or any form of weapons for mass destruction, for the matter.

 

[MrBern]

but just think if Japan (or Germany) had developed the capability before we did. What would the world be like today?

WHat would it be like? Heres a thought.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjlg49y7Dxk

 

[Twitch]

There is substantial information, at least there was in 1946, that Japan detonated a nuclear device in the Konan, Korea (North Korea now). It would have been folly to make up a story locating it in and area that would have probably been investigated. No one knew then that that area would reamain secret to the outside to this day.

It has been surpressed along with the fact that Germany could have, at any time after 1942, deployed a radiation bomb. The threats the Axis powers held have been dismissed, minimized or outright lied about in an effort to pump up the invincible legend of the Allies.

Recently it has been pieced together that a dirty bomb with a small amount of uranium triggered by conventional explosives was experimented with in the Ohrdruf concentration camp area of eastern Germany. Ground zero later became a Soviet munitions depot after the war. Higher than normal levels of radioactive isotopes remain though no longer at dangerous levels.

The alleged test was on March 3, 1945 according to eyewitnesses. A vivid flash of light was followed by a column of smoke and nearby residents suffered nosebleeds and nausea for days. Corpses later disposed of were described as hairless with blisters and raw flesh reminiscent of the Japanese radiation victims.

As far as invasion scenarios go versus the A-bombs-\

Operation Olympic dealt with the Kyushu island invasion. The main island scenario was called Operation Coronet.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff April 1945 estimates implied that a 90-day Operation Olympic campaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities. Since no one knew of the secret manufacture ability, thousands of extra planes and other sea-borne kamikazes were never considered or projected into calculations so the casualty number certainly would have inflated if they had.

The first 48 days at Normandy resulted in just 63,000 casualties.

Inside and outside the government sources studies concluded 1.7- 4 million American casualties, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and 5 to 10 million Japanese fatalities assuming a large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.

Kyushu is 17,135 square miles, Shikoku is just 7,258, Hokkaido is 32,246 and Honshu is a whopping 89,194 square miles. The dogged Iwo Jima campaign took place on the island of less than eight square miles in area for five weeks and cost 7,000 American and 22,000 Japanese lives. Okinawa is just 611 square miles and cost 12,000 American and 200,000+ Japanese dead (includes 100,000 civilians) during the 11-week fight. How long would it have taken to vanquish 900,000 fighting men on Kyushu, an area of 17,000 miles square? How long for Honshu?

There were a total of 2,350,000 men at arms in Japan in August 1945 and 3 million on the Asian continent that were feared would return home for combat.

The civilian population’s National Volunteer Combat Force consisted of 28 million! Boys as young as fifteen and men as old as sixty, as well as girls of seventeen and women of forty years of age were members. They were armed with outdated firearms, satchel charges, mines, Molotov cocktails, bows and axes right down to sharpened bamboo spears. Wouldn’t anyone fight for their own soil?

Olympic and Coronet proposed ultimately putting 5 million Americans at arms to subdue Japan in a final stranglehold of submission.

Ten year mop up plans were envisioned when it was calculated that defeated troops would have slipped away into the mountains to commence guerilla warfare.

As horrible as nukes were the spectre of the unbridled blood bath an invasion would have held pales in comparison.