Liberation dilemma in Denmark

[Spitfire]

Ever since 4th of may 1945 this day has been celebrated as the day Denmark was free again after 5 years of Nazi occupation.
It is the evening where people light candles in the windows, to celebrate and remember the many men and women who lost their lives fighting for freedom and democracy in the resistance.
But this year the armed forces also wanted to use that day, with a parade on the Copenhagen Town hall Square, in remembrance of the soldiers killed in Iraq, Bosnia and Afghanistan.
This started a debate between the veterans of the resistance 1940 – 1945 and the armed forces. The veterans felt that the day was the day Denmark was free – and to some extent “their day”. While the armed forces felt it was a good day to remember all soldiers fighting for freedom and democracy. No need to say, that the veterans felt the armed forces stole their day – and had nothing to do there.
They were fighting for liberation of their own country – while the armed forces are invading, fighting and occupying other countries.
I tend to support that statement.
The big difference – so it seems to me – is that the modern armed forces do what the government tells them to do – while the resistance back then did the opposite of what the government told them.

What do you think?
(Hope this is not political – it wasn’t meant to be.)

 

[Slim Portly]

Without getting into political specifics, let me agree that there is a big difference between a day that celebrates all military soldiers and veterans and a day that celebrates resistance against an invading army, especially if that resistance contributed to the freedom of the country in question, and I would think that all citizens of that country, including the heads of the modern military, would do everything within their power to keep that day of remembrance separate and distinct.

 

[dhermann1]

Well, in the US and Britain (and the Dominions), Armistice Day (Nov 11th), became Veterans' Day and Remembrance Day, respectively, in just the same way, and most people thought it appropriate.

 

[scotrace]

But it will be easier for the veterans of the resistance to swallow having their day folded into a larger remembrance once they have passed, yes? I completely understand their frustration.

 

[Spitfire]

Well, in the US and Britain (and the Dominions), Armistice Day (Nov 11th), became Veterans' Day and Remembrance Day, respectively, in just the same way, and most people thought it appropriate.

Ahhh yes. But unfortunately it's a bit more tricky here in Denmark.
Let me give you a bit of danish history.
In 1940 - and the years before - the governement had seen no threat from Germany. They were neighbours, we had lost the last war to them and nobody wanted to rock the boat - so to speak.

April 9 1940 - when the Nazis attacked Norway and Denmark , the governement ordered the danish army/navy and airforce to lay down their weapons and not to fight against the invading germans. (A few did anyway!)

And for a very long time the danish governement wanted and seeked to work together with the nazis. In order to avoid more bloodshed and - my guesse - in order to survive as a nation - and do business with Nazi Germany.
When the resistance slowly began in '41-'42 it was primarily communists/socialists who started it. And they were imidiately declared criminals and outlaws by the danish governement. And arrested - if possible - by the danish police. And then handed over to the Nazis. Either to be imprisoned, sent to KZ camps or killed.

In 1943 there was a hughe revolte in all the larger cities in Denmark and the Germans arrested the Danish police and attacked all Danish armybases.
(We actually had our army still) The navy sank most of their ships in order that they should not fall into the hands of German navy. And from that day - the Nazis ruled Denmark alone.
It was only then - that the resistance was looked upon as something good. Allthough most of the men and women - including my father - had been fighting since 41-42.
Since the danish army had been "sent home" a lot of officers and soldiers formed resistance groups too. Which naturally helped in the fight against the Nazis.
As I said in my first post: The resistance did the opposite of what the governement wanted - and what the army did in 1940.
So - to call it a "veterans day" would be wrong. In many resistance veterans eyes. And in mine too.

Not that I do not think we should have it here too. As a matter of fact, I have written and suggested that we sell poppies (or something like it) at a special day in the year - in order to help and support our modern day veterans and the families of the killed and wounded.

But to mix modern days veterans from Iraq, Bosnia and Afghanistan - where they do a dangerous and hard job - with the memory of the few danes that not only stood up against Nazi tyrrani - but also their own governement, would be totally wrong, in my oppinion.

Hope this brought some clearence on a slightly darker side of my countrys history.

 

[dhermann1]

Verrrry interesting, and indeed, very different. Was Denmark involved in WW I? I know Holland was not involved. I've read several books on WW I lately, but don't recall what they said about Denmark. It's not easy being a small weak neighbor to a large powerful, and aggressive, country.

 

[Spitfire]

Verrrry interesting, and indeed, very different. Was Denmark involved in WW I? I know Holland was not involved. I've read several books on WW I lately, but don't recall what they said about Denmark. It's not easy being a small weak neighbor to a large powerful, and aggressive, country.

No - we were neutral back then.
But because we were so good at being neutral, we got some old danish country back, that the prussians stole from us after we lost to them in the war in 1864. (edit - thanks)

 

[Miss Sis]

Well, in the US and Britain (and the Dominions), Armistice Day (Nov 11th), became Veterans' Day and Remembrance Day, respectively, in just the same way, and most people thought it appropriate.

Australia and New Zealand's day of rememberance is 25 April - ANZAC Day, not November 11. This day was chosen as a significant date of the First World War for the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps. It is felt by many that this was when our countries 'came of age' and began to see themselves as separate entities from the Mother country and begin forging a national identity of their own. We don't particularly acknowledge Armistice Day the same as the British do. Infact, I suspect many people wouldn't even know what the significance of that date is in Oz/NZ!

Although November 11 marks the end of a particular war, it is interesting that there is debate as to creating a new public holiday to acknowledge the Armed Forces now. There is, as far as I know, no move to merge this with Armistice Day, which remembers mainly the fallen of war.

I think in Denmark's case, Spitfire, they should, IMHO, have a separate day for the current forces.

 

[dhermann1]

No - we were neutral back then.
But because we were so good at being neutral, we got some old danish country back, that the prussians stole from us after we lost to them in the war in 1964.

Make that 1864 . Just read about that in Trevelyan's "British History in the 19th Century and After 1782 - 1919".
I've seen Remembrance Day celebrations from Canada and the UK. Didn't realize it was not observed in Australia and NZ on the same day.
Anyway, I think this issue is something for Danes to work out for themselves.
Interesting history.

 

[John in Covina]

A co-opted memorial day shows that there is a push to re-write history and to forget what happened in the past.

(But I thought that the government is wonderful there, they wouldn't push for something that isn't a good thing?)

If you vote in your government representatives there, it would be a good point to use to run against those that pushed this travesty on the peoples of Denmark.

Washington and Lincoln got screwed to with the whole President's Day thing here, too!

 

[carter]

Lest We Forget

Not that they are exactly the same but there are similarities in the Danish and French Resistances during WWII. Both were not in accord with national governmental bodies that cooperated with the Germans. A large portion of the members of both Resistance forces were Communists and/or Socialists.

In France, the 1945 Victory (WWII) is celebrated on 8 May and Remembrance Day (WWI) is celebrated on 11 November.

Without being aware of all the societal and political ramifications, two dates would seem to be an equitable solution.

Since Denmark was neutral during WWI, is there a date that is of great signifigance to the Resistance veterans of WWII? If so, perhaps that could be designated as a National Day of Remembrance.

Another significant day of military/national importance might be designated as Armed Forces Day.

 

[Big Man]

Since it's not my country, as we say here, "I ain't got no dog in that fight". However, you did ask, so here goes ...

I would think your 4 May date should always be set aside to remember the contribution of the men and women of the resistance and their efforts that resulted in liberation from Nazi rule.

It is also proper to remember the contributions and sacrifices of the military (past, present, and future), regardless of the "politics" that send them into battle. It would appear to be appropriate to designate a "Veterans Day" to acknowledge the contributions of all veterans (although the date should be separate from the 4 May Liberation Day).

 

[dr greg]

Two dates

To clarify, in Australia we celebrate ANZAC day, April 25 which is the date of the Gallipoli landings, and it's a public holiday with veteran's marches and religious services in every town and city. Remembrance day Nov 11th is observed with the laying of wreaths and religious observance at monuments at 11 AM, there is also a minute's silence to remember the dead of all wars which is observed by the public broadcasters but not by the commercial ones to my knowledge, and there is no holiday.

 

[Spitfire]

Great input gents, thank you.

The latest news are, that there soon will be established a national "veterans day" in september - no known day yet.
(And why not sell "poppies" to support veteran families and wounded - Like they do in so many other countries?)

Which - hopefully - means that the WWII resistance veterans and their relatives can have may 4th as their special - and wellearned - day.

 

[scotrace]

I am glad to hear it. Such enormous courage deserves to have a day of remembrance that is all on its own.

 

[carter]

That's good news, Spitfire.