Just Who Can Wear a Uniform?

[maggiethespy]

This may belong in the Observation Bar-- I trust that a Bartender will point me in the right direction if it does

I'm looking for some advice/enlightenment over the subject of Uniform protocol-- can anyone wear one?

I was recently over at my grandparent's house and my grandmother and I decided to go through some family heirlooms in her cedar chest. In it we found her father's WWII US Navy uniforms, likely issued in 1944. He was a petty officer and barber stationed in Corpus Christi from 41-45. Somehow we decided that I should try the uniform on and low and behold, it fits me perfectly. (Now I'm trying not to let the fact that I'm the same size as a 35 year old man bother me-- Grandma insists that he was very thin and I've got considerably nicer curves than he was sporting, so it's perfectly fine that it fits me).

To make a long story short, we decided that when I have a photo shoot with my cousin next week, I should take some pictures in his uniform. I have a full set of the wool uniform, along with an overseas hat and a couple of his white hats. It's pretty neat-- his name is neatly stamped in everything, so it makes things extra special.

If I do take pictures, I'd like to do them in the style of this classic poster:

Is that okay? Is there a chance I'll offend any servicemen?

When is it okay to wear a military uniform, and when is it not?

 

[bobalooba]

I don't think you should wear it in every day where or miswear it (IE intentionally damaging, leaving the jacket unbuttoned etc.) but I should think wearing it just for a photo would be fine.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

No Problem!!!!!!....

You are officially known as a "Reenactor"! Congratulations!

The fact of the matter is, there a millions of people across this nation that honor veterans and those fallen in combat by wearing uniforms (all the way back to Revolutionary time!) and commemorating the uniform, the service and the soldier. I'm willing to bet there are more than a few of your fellow loungers that have a uniform or two that the strut around on various occasions. Or, in my case, no occasion at all!.... just for the shear enjoyment of finally being able to wear something you dreamed of as an impressionable child!

The only caviat, one time honored tradition amongst us hard-core reenactor types is this; you must show a finished photo of yourself in the uniform for us all to admire! You are obligated!

The only other thing that I like to mention is the wearing of decorations. I don't think reenactors should wear decorations of merit such as the Purple Heart, the Stars, or the MOH. Those are sacrosanct and shouldn't be trivialized because of the valor requisit to obtain them by the honored serviceman. (IMHO, as it were!)

Congratulations Maggiethespy! :eusa_clap

-Dixon Cannon

 

[Story]

Maggie,
In addition to Dixon's comments, the UCMJ (Uniformed Code of Military Justice) takes issue with those wearing a military uniform in order to impersonate a servicemember.

Re-enacting and photo shoots with an obsolete uniform? Post pics! :eusa_clap

As an aside, what sort of low quarters went with the Navy working white uniform during WWII?

Somehow, I think size 7 1/2 black pumps didn't cut the mustard (unless the swabbies were trying to get sent home on a Section 8).

Interesting tidbit, that would imply that WWII Navy WAVES could wear the wool slacks uniform, if the job required it.
http://books.google.com/books?id=hs...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#PPA125,M1

See also http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/prs-tpic/females/wave-ww2.htm

http://www.albanyinstitute.org/exhibits/wwII.WAVES.htm

 

[Diamondback]

Welcome to the club, Maggie!

"Obsolete" uniforms are fair game, but there's still a certain etiquette about "respecting the uniform and those who wore it", which varies from person to person. Your great-grandfather, based on your stated intent, would probably be honored if he was typical Greatest Generation--but if you were to adopt the style for everyday, it probably wouldn't work. (Which is why I tend to favor some subtle differences in cut, paired with no insignia aside from the cap, but that's just me.)

For example, since I'm 24/7 "channeling MacArthur" but harbor no delusions of being the original (I'm clearly a "derivative", and would like to think I've had some "upgrades"), I tend to rebuke the odd schmucks who call me "General" every so often, but if I'm "In Character" as I was at GenCon last year that's acceptable. Guess what I'm trying to say is, when you put on the uniform how you conduct yourself has to be a higher standard than "normal".

----------------
Now playing: Visual Music, James Hannigan and Andrew Sega - Planetscapes Suite
via FoxyTunes

 

[FinalVestige79]

Its fine..!!!

You wont offend anyone, its nice to know a real uniform is being worn like it is supposed to be instead of being put in a museum. Its a great thing to see a girl wear a uniform for some reason.

 

[chanteuseCarey]

interesting reading all this...

but I'm frankly surprised to hear these responses coming from male re-enactors here that take this all pretty seriously. You gents don't have a problem with a gal wearing (and basically playing dress-up in it) a serviceman's uniform?? Wouldn't that seem a little on the disrespectful side? Seems like it didn't bother Maggie's Grandma but then it wasn't the serviceman's wife was it - (I'm assuming she is passed on, Maggie's great-grandmother), but rather the officer's daughter that thought it was fun for Maggie to try this on. Hm...

Our family just joined a group called BAWMHRS (Bay Area Women's and Men's Historical Representation Society), and all the members treat these historical authentic military uniforms with great respect for those that wore them and what they did for their country.

As a lady myself, I think I'd feel I was disrespecting the man, his uniform and the military history by wearing anything other than a lady's servicewoman's uniform. I am in this group as a civilian woman on the home front at this point, but a number of the ladies wear servicewomen's uniforms (mostly they are WAVES, WACS or Red Cross Nurses).

I've never heard of gal's wearing a man's "real" historic military uniform-- is it supposed to be "cute" like sortof as the reverse of a guy being dressed as a woman in drag? And if it was just for a fun photo op, wouldn't it seem that a gal wearing like it meant it as nothing more important than using it as a "costume".

Sorry Maggie, but if I was the MAN that owned the uniform or even his SON, and a gal, even if it was a family member, that wanted to try it on for fun and then have her pic taken in it- I'd feel insulted by your even asking or wanting to put this on, let alone actually doing it.

Please don't flame me guys or Maggie, as these are of course just my thoughts. Maybe I'm just looking at this from an older person's perspective (I'm almost 51), so I see it differently than perhaps the younger generation does. The WWII Navy poster was created then to be a serious vehicle for real recruitment for a serious war, not to be funny or as a pin-up. She wasn't portrayed as dressing up for Halloween being cute.

With that in mind, BTW, at a local antique/retro collectibles/vintage clothing store, I recently found a REAL WWII WAVES seersucker summer uniform and matching jacket. It was on the rack with other vintage clothing. When I asked about purchasing it, the owner said she was keeping it as a "fun" costume rental. What a shame. I'm sure most that would rent it (in that area, and given the age of her usual clientel), have no idea what it really is or what it signifies. There used to be a dance store/costume rental shop across the street from this store, that since moved. Lots of young people apparently rent or purchases 50s and 60s stuff from this place. She does great business for the Halloween season in her shop.

The owner said an older gentlemen some time back asked about buying the uniform, because he had the very rare authentic WWII garrison cap that went with this WAVES 2 piece uniform. She said no, even to him! With BAWMHRS being a representation group, I'm going to try talking to her again and see if at some point she will let me purchase this to rescue it from being used and thought of as nothing more than as a Halloween costume. This uniform has a real historical significance and should be treated as a such.

 

[FinalVestige79]

Back in the war it was pretty common to see women wearing the same uniform as men...albeit with exceptions of the skirt and hosiery and hats but it was for the most part the same kit. Nurses for instance in combat wore / wear the same combat uniform and dress uniform (not 100% on current standards tho)

Its a matter of respect...but also a matter of representation and personal taste. Its not anything sexually based such as the recruiting flyer. Its a matter of personal preference...in the family way like you are talking about...most past servicemen did let their children play dress up and what have you with their stuff. I have a musette bag with a guys name painted inside...and then his son used it for his boyscout stuff. Its not disrespectful...disrespectful would be selling it or let it be eaten away by moths and time, or in the case you noted it...renting it as a costume...that to me is sacrilege.

If Maggie knew what it was...and did what she did respectfully and had the foresight to know that that uniform was a symbol of patriotism and history than no harm done...the shame of it all is not having the knowledge, if the person realizes that the uniform they wear has a historical significance and not just "Oh yeah it was my great so and so's....isn't it cute?!'

All in all..when it comes to wearing a uniform of historical significance you need to do with respect for those who wore it before. Its not just a piece of clothing, its not something that's not to be appreciated. Knowledge, appreciation and good intentions. I wouldn't hand my Class A's to some dumb kid who didn't know what the heck it was...or said something like...'Oh yeah they had these in Band of Brothers..." that would earn him a smack upside the head.

 

[Teabag1927]

I wear one all the time, to all sorts of different events, they are all either for re-enactments or living history or 30's/40s events though, all appropriate stuff, and as long as you do it right, i dont think anyone will mind, iv'e never had a problem.

 

[MPicciotto]

chanteuseCarey,

I see and respect your views on the uniform wearing. To me this is a case of a descendent keeping alive the fact that this man wore this uniform and served his country. Grandpa's old uniform hanging in the back of the closest may only be seen as another piece of clothing to many of the family. But when worn Maggie could bring alive the fact that Grandpa actually wore this uniform while serving a higher cause then himself. As a reenactor myself that is how I read the intent and the response of the other reenactors on this board. I took the "Women in a guys uniform" or the replicating the poster as more of an aside. An added bonus. Just as arguably the Pinks and Greens dress uniform besides being an accurate uniform to wear to formal period events is also one of the nicest if not the nicest uniform ever developed for the US army.

Matt

 

[Feraud]

Absolutely do not disrespect your great grandfather's uniform and service by doing a pin-up shoot.
It is no better than the US Army running a line of clothing through Sears.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I wore WW2 sailor whites in the Maine Lobster Festival parade years ago, while driving a golf cart hitched to a trailer with a fake mermaid on it -- it was a publicity float for the radio station where I worked at the time. But I removed the insignia first -- no rating patch, no service ribbons. That way it became a generic "sailor suit" rather than a specific uniform, and I was less uncomfortable with the whole idea of it.

On the other hand, I wore a full Army WAC uniform with the insignia of a Technician 4th Grade during a 50th Anniversary of V-J Day ceremony, and had no problem with that at all. As others have said, both intent and context matter.

 

[Lone_Ranger]

Back in the war it was pretty common to see women wearing the same uniform as men...albeit with exceptions of the skirt and hosiery and hats but it was for the most part the same kit. Nurses for instance in combat wore / wear the same combat uniform and dress uniform (not 100% on current standards tho)

Its a matter of respect...but also a matter of representation and personal taste. Its not anything sexually based such as the recruiting flyer. Its a matter of personal preference...in the family way like you are talking about...most past servicemen did let their children play dress up and what have you with their stuff. I have a musette bag with a guys name painted inside...and then his son used it for his boyscout stuff. Its not disrespectful...disrespectful would be selling it or let it be eaten away by moths and time, or in the case you noted it...renting it as a costume...that to me is sacrilege.

If Maggie knew what it was...and did what she did respectfully and had the foresight to know that that uniform was a symbol of patriotism and history than no harm done...the shame of it all is not having the knowledge, if the person realizes that the uniform they wear has a historical significance and not just "Oh yeah it was my great so and so's....isn't it cute?!'

All in all..when it comes to wearing a uniform of historical significance you need to do with respect for those who wore it before. Its not just a piece of clothing, its not something that's not to be appreciated. Knowledge, appreciation and good intentions. I wouldn't hand my Class A's to some dumb kid who didn't know what the heck it was...or said something like...'Oh yeah they had these in Band of Brothers..." that would earn him a smack upside the head.

It used to be quite acceptable. As shown here.

There are some better pictures, on a different forum, but they are in a person's private collection, and I didn't want to "appropriate" them here. The other photos clearly show the princess, reviewing the Life Guard Hussar Regiment. She is wearing a skirt, and riding side-saddle, instead of boots, and breeches the men in the regiment are wearing.

That's one serious looking busby, she's sporting.


I think the answer is in the intent. If you are wearing the uniform, and you look like the Andrews Sisters, on the way to a USO show, then you are good. If you look like your Volkswagen Microbus broke down on the way to Woodstock, you should probably re-think the uniform.

 

[President_CHG]

Oh, I dunno. I mulled over this a bit, now and in the past. I put some time in the Navy and am pretty proud of the uniform (as I am with all our branches) and my take on it is that I wouldn't have a problem with this. If my granddaughter (if I'm so lucky to have one) wanted to put my old dress blues on for a tasteful photo I think I'd be tickled pink. I'd rather see it get brought out and used instead of left in a closet, out of sight, and subsequently long forgotten... along with any of the stories and history that go with it.

Once in awhile, I will wear my repro tanker jacket with modern civilian clothes. Most don't know what it is. But once in awhile, somebody will notice it, look at the patch and ask. It then has succeeded in initiating dialogue about WWII history and the reenacting hobby... dialogue and interest that would've never been there if I opted to leave it at home to show it respect by not wearing it with the complete outfit.

I don't see any more disrespect with a gal wanting to wear her grand dad's uniform to replicate an old recruiting poster than a 45 year old salesman with no prior service who wants to wear e-bay-bought wools because he saw Saving Private Ryan and wants to come out and "pop blanks in to krauts." Frankly, I see a whole lot more disrespect in the latter.

Maggie, my take is go for it. I can't guarantee you won't offend someone somewhere as everyone is different. Just the fact that you asked is showing a lot on your respect of the uniform and the service. Hope this helps.

 

[maggiethespy]

Well, it's a little late now for those of you who were so vehemently against it-- I've taken the pictures. I'll be posting one or two for your viewing pleasure just as soon as my photographer is finished with them.

I'm rather pleased with how they turned out-- in my opinion not at all disrespectful.

After reading and considering every post in this thread, I think that the two general opinions here are 1) Wearing the uniform is a way of keeping history alive and 2) Wearing the uniform is a horrible offense that I should be shot for.

Since the former outweighs the latter in number, and since it aligns with my intent, I've taken it to heart. I think that my great-grandfather would love to see the photos.

In response to Chanteuse Carey, my great grandmother gave permission to my aunt to wear the uniform for a school project some 30 years ago (after my grandfather's untimely passing), so I should think this fits similarly. I know Grandma wouldn't let me do anything that her mother or father would have a problem with. g

 

[Miss Sis]

It used to be quite acceptable. As shown here.

The other photos clearly show the princess, reviewing the Life Guard Hussar Regiment. She is wearing a skirt, and riding side-saddle, instead of boots, and breeches the men in the regiment are wearing.

Many members of royal families are made honourary members of branches of the armed forces, such as the British royal family. Princess Anne has not served but wears uniform on Rememberance Day to lay a wreath. I suspect this is what was going on with the above photo.

 

[FinalVestige79]

Oh, I dunno. I mulled over this a bit, now and in the past. I put some time in the Navy and am pretty proud of the uniform (as I am with all our branches) and my take on it is that I wouldn't have a problem with this. If my granddaughter (if I'm so lucky to have one) wanted to put my old dress blues on for a tasteful photo I think I'd be tickled pink. I'd rather see it get brought out and used instead of left in a closet, out of sight, and subsequently long forgotten... along with any of the stories and history that go with it.

Once in awhile, I will wear my repro tanker jacket with modern civilian clothes. Most don't know what it is. But once in awhile, somebody will notice it, look at the patch and ask. It then has succeeded in initiating dialogue about WWII history and the reenacting hobby... dialogue and interest that would've never been there if I opted to leave it at home to show it respect by not wearing it with the complete outfit.


I don't see any more disrespect with a gal wanting to wear her grand dad's uniform to replicate an old recruiting poster than a 45 year old salesman with no prior service who wants to wear e-bay-bought wools because he saw Saving Private Ryan and wants to come out and "pop blanks in to krauts." Frankly, I see a whole lot more disrespect in the latter.

Maggie, my take is go for it. I can't guarantee you won't offend someone somewhere as everyone is different. Just the fact that you asked is showing a lot on your respect of the uniform and the service. Hope this helps.

Hey Anthony, glad to see you on the Fedora Lounge!fftopic:

 

[Spitfire]

I think anybody can wear old and out of date uniforms.
If you - for some strange reason - feel comfortable being dressed up as a fieldmarshal every day - wear it! (Other people might not get it, but what the h...)
If you feel you honour somebody (family, regiment, military branch or generation) - wear it in good health!
We have many members here in FL who wears uniforms - or parts of uniforms - every day or several days a week. And some of them has not even served. What's the big deal?
If it makes them happy, or boost their image, or does something for them?
Like keeping them warm. Who cares?

If you wear a uniform or parts of a uniform (jacket, hat, boots...) which is no longer in use - and you doesn't have the age for having actually been there (WWII, Korea, Vietnam) I do not see the big deal.
Call it interest, fashion, trend, honour...

If you are not allowed to wear uniforms, we have a lot of members with A2 jackets, Irvin jackets, BD jackets, boots of alll kinds, submarinesweaters and greatcoats, who should find other outerwear for next winter. (Myself included)

Another thing is dressing up in a modern/todays uniform, with rank and medals - which you have not in any way earned. That's down right cheating.

Just my 2c

PS Looking foreward to see you pictures. Maggiethespy!

 

[HadleyH]

PS Looking foreward to see you pictures. Maggiethespy!

:arated:

Me too Maggie!

 

[Marcus]

Let me premise this by saying I'm a former Marine, 1996-2004. Personally I have no issues whatsoever with a woman dressing up in a man's uniform for what you are doing. In fact, ALOT of guys I served with (including me) have had our wives or GFs dress up in our uniforms because we thought it was downright sexy! I'm not going to pull any punches here. Put a cute gal in your dress blues jacket and it just works!

Also, if you research old photos you will see that this just as common back in the day as it is now. Plenty of German WW2 photos of women in their husband's uniform.

I say go for it and not worry.

I can't really say I like it when I see guys who are just too big in the midsection and look nothing like Marines wearing the uniform, but I have to step back and tell myself they don't mean any offense. It just looks bad in my opinion, but having been in the Corps, I expect certain things, especially when it comes the Marine Corps uniform of any period.