Is there a name for this brim edge curl?

[Nyah]

On a typical homburg, I've heard the upturned edge of the brim referred to as a pencil curl. What about when the edge is truly curled, where it looks like it really was molded around a torus (aka doughnut) shape? I've seen this mostly on panama and other woven hat types, on instances when the brim is fairly wide. I'm guessing that the purpose of this curl is to improve the stiffness of the brim. Is there a name for this brim curl?

 

[Nyah]

I'd say that the optimo-crown hat in the lower left of this photo shows an example of the edge curl that I'm asking about. I've seen wider-brimed hats that have this edge curl as well.

 

[OT1899]

I'd say that the optimo-crown hat in the lower left of this photo shows an example of the edge curl that I'm asking about. I've seen wider-brimed hats that have this edge curl as well.

I am no expert here, but that looks like a standard 3/4 kettle curl or rolled edge. I have seen this on wide brim panama hats that are referred to by some as "plantation" hats. I have not seen it with an Optimo crown before but have seen quite a few gambler-style creases. If you Google "plantation style Panama hats", you will find several results with images. Hope this is helpful.

 

[mayserwegener]

I think the Optimo in the lower left corner is Homburg like. Hopefully Alan will clarify. The Homburg curl is different than a Pencil curl (even curl and flange).

Here is good example of a Homburg curl. I don't have a good example of Pencil curl.

 

[fedoracentric]

Kettle curl. That's what I've always seen it referred to as.

 

[mayserwegener]

I do not know what it is called in German. Homburg curl is just my description.

 

[Rabbit]

Kettle curl I guess, like fedoracentric said.

It seems that compared to a Homburg curl, the type of curl that Nyah is referring to is 1) curled more inward, resulting in an edge that is horizontal (pointing straight to the hatband) rather than pointing a little more upward and 2) curled (almost?) evenly all around the circumference of the brim.

I, too, have seen it on gambler-style and plantation hats.

Also, as we know, on Homburgs - at least the more elegant ones that were produced pre-WWII and up to the 50s in the case of many brands - there is less curl in the front and back, so I guess the name for the curl can't be the same, can it?

 

[TheDane]

Both "kettle curl" and "pencil curl" is widely used - but for an edge quite different from both Homburg or Derby edges. As I understand it, kettle curl is usually quite large (often 3/4"), whereas pencil curl is smaller in diamter. The kettle curl is also "fuller" then the pencil curl. With a kettle curl, the brim edge is pointing toward the crown - or even a little down. With a pencil curl the edge points toward the sky - the brim doesn't curl as much.

Both the kettle and pencil curl are created with a special tool, used on the brim edge only. It can be done manually with the tool, called a "curling shackel" - or it can be done on a machine.

On a Homburg, the "curl" is build into the flange, and the brim edge is ironed into the "curl-groove" of the flange before and after the sand-bagging. Sometimes it is/was even more accentuated or "sharpened" by ironing the curl flatter - the so-called "d'Orsay curl". This effect can also be created with a special shackel (often called a d'Orsay-iron). The latter was also used on stiff hats (Derby/Bowler).

Actually there's also a brim-style, called "Turban" style. On a Turban styled brim, the edge is rolled, but points quite straight upwards - bending very slightly toward the crown. It was mainly used in the 20s and early 30s, and the "curl" was build into the flange - like the Homburg's.

The Turban and Homburg/d'Orsay brim was mainly used on dress hats, while kettle- and pencil curl mainly was used on westerns and Panamas.

 

[Rabbit]

Thanks for the clarification and detailed info, Ole!

 

[alanfgag]

I'd say that the optimo-crown hat in the lower left of this photo shows an example of the edge curl that I'm asking about. I've seen wider-brimed hats that have this edge curl as well.

The hat you reference here is a buntal that was blocked last year by Optimo. I asked Graham for a brim that they sell in a plantation style montecristi.

 

[mayserwegener]

On a Homburg, the "curl" is build into the flange, and the brim edge is ironed into the "curl-groove" of the flange before and after the sand-bagging. Sometimes it is/was even more accentuated or "sharpened" by ironing the curl flatter - the so-called "d'Orsay curl". This effect can also be created with a special shackel (often called a d'Orsay-iron). The latter was also used on stiff hats (Derby/Bowler).

It looks like some extra work (see side view) was done on the example I posted above. P. & C. Habig Wien tended to use a more stiff felt approach (not typical) with their Homburgs. Here is a good example. (By the way the brim isn't normally that flat. I must have pushed it down on the stand.)

 

[mayserwegener]

Also, as we know, on Homburgs - at least the more elegant ones that were produced pre-WWII and up to the 50s in the case of many brands - there is less curl in the front and back, so I guess the name for the curl can't be the same, can it?

German and Austrian Homburgs vary. The two examples I posted are considered Homburgs but the P. & C. Habig Wien brim is more stiff felt like. The first example (more typical) is a Hückel Weilheim which is from about the same time period (1950s).

Side note: I don't believe anyone here has an old (late 1800s very early 1900s) Edward VII style Homburg. Not sure what I would do if I found a Möckel Homburg from that time period.

 

[bolthead]

I think this thread needs resurrecting.

 

[Bob Roberts]

Yes especially cuz Im considering a modified pencil/kettle/homburg type curl on my next hat.

 

[belfastboy]

Yes especially cuz Im considering a modified pencil/kettle/homburg type curl on my next hat.

Perfect timing (for me) to resurrect this thread. I am about to order a hat and need to get a handle on the curl I want and what the hell to call.

 

[Rick Blaine]

Awaiting this kettle curl:

 

[mayserwegener]

Side note: I don't believe anyone here has an old (late 1800s very early 1900s) Edward VII style Homburg. Not sure what I would do if I found a Möckel Homburg from that time period.

After I made this post Garrett found (probably) a late 19th Century J. Hückel´s Söhne Extra "Loutre" that has a very similar form to a Edward VII style Homburg. The photos of this very important find are now only available on my site.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/page-9#entry1080

 

[bolthead]

After I made this post Garrett found (probably) a late 19th Century J. Hückel´s Söhne Extra "Loutre" that has a very similar form to a Edward VII style Homburg. The photos of this very important find are now only available on my site.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/page-9#entry1080

Wow! I'm not surprised Garrett owns it.

 

[hatsRme]

Looks great on him, too!!

 

[Michael R.]

I always think of a pencil curl as 1/4" and a kettle curl as 3/4" . A Homburg has its own thing going , but I like them , especially wider Brim versions .