Here?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s a problem I have with Political Debates.

[Renderking Fisk]

Here?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s a problem I have with Political Debates.

I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ve been checking out some of the political debates on forums like ?¢‚Ǩ?ìBoards.TheForce.Net?¢‚Ǩ? and ?¢‚Ǩ?ìRaven.Theraider.net?¢‚Ǩ?, on the radio and town meetings. They all have something in common?¢‚Ǩ¬¶

There?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s a lot of talk, a lot of yelling, a lot of regurgitation of the party?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s talking points, but there?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s not a lot of real ?¢‚Ǩ?ìDebating?¢‚Ǩ? going on. Nobody?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s REALLY listening to what?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s going on or what?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s being said?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ just dropping bombs to make a point with out really focussing on what the other side is saying.

Further more; nobody is really well versed in what the other side says or believes. Everyone is listening or reading things said or written by people who back up their preconceived ideology. Conservatives only listen to Rush Limbaugh, while Liberals only listen to Michael Moore or Al Franken. When they do listen to the other side they do so just so they can sniff for opportunities to trash the other side, looking for a weakness in the oppositions ideals.

Also, there?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s a lot of ?¢‚Ǩ?ìSelective Indignation?¢‚Ǩ? where a politician says, ?¢‚Ǩ?ìThat?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s outrageous?¢‚Ǩ? when they?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re getting attacked while they remain silent when the other guy is getting nailed in a similar fashion by another fringe group.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Each party has become so polarized to the extreme that they believe the entire country needs to be there as well. What they fail to realize is that most Americans and fairly moderate, and more toward the center than anything else. But the only folks that make any noise are the groups at the far left and right. If we ever had a candidate that was philosophically and ideologically in the center, we might see an overwhelming majority vote for him or her.

My thoughts during an aggravating election era.

Brad Bowers

 

[MK]

I have seen a lot of that. This is the only board that I have been able to have an exchange of ideas without the other person getting too emotionally involved. That is a credit to the great people we have here.

On another note, I recently was in Portland, Oregon which is a very liberal city. I always surf the radio stations to find music or talk radio. Most of you probably don't know this, but I have conservative political views. I found the leftwing sydicated radio network called "Air America" that is headed by AL Franken, I believe.

It was interesting to listen to the various hosts and callers and their views of the right. Some of it was funny. Some of it was interesting. Of course it was a bit uncomfortable to take a big dose of ideology that I disagree with, but it was educational. I was able to get their take of world events.

I don't relate with their views....in fact I am amazed they interpret things the way they do.

I will share one conversation: I stopped by a book store to pick up a Marlowe book and I noticed that they had many political books being featured throughout the store....all liberal. As I was paying for my book, I mentioned my observation to the young lady behind the counter. She responded with "Oh, yeah. We don't get much call for the O'Reilly books here."

She was nice and we talked for a good 15-20 minutes discussing the issues. She was a die hard liberal....but not in a mean way.

She couldn't understand why everyone didn't vote liberal and felt that everyone would if they just were better informed. She was for big government with craddle to the grave entitlements. I was for individual freedom to make my own choices with my money rather than have the government take and use it the why they felt best.

She thought Kerry was great but couldn't give a solid reason why, except he was running against Bush. She despised the President and had a caricature view of him and opposed all his policies. I asked her if there was anything that she liked about him and she said no.

I tried to leave her with, "Well you might not like Bush but there has not been a terrorist attack on the U.S. since 911." She asked if I thought Kerry wouldn't do just as a good of job protecting our country. I said I didn't think so and reminded her that Kerry was in battle for only 4 months, but has been a peacenik for 40 years opposing just about every weapon system we have today.

She said she liked that. I asked her who she felt Osama bin Laden would want in office. Her answer was Bush!

I had inquire as to why she felt that bin Laden would want the guy who has removed the taliban government, eliminated most of his organization, confiscated or frozen his bank accounts and has him running for his life to continue to oppress him. She said Bush really helps Osama to recruit more followers.

It was then that I knew it was time to go. She wasn't going to allow logic or common sense to conflict with her political party. I thanked her for the exchange of ideas and wished her a good weekend.

I still felt this was good conversation and wa glad I had taken the time to speak with her. I got a chance to hear another point of view and perhaps she did too.

 

[The Wingnut]

The political bickering and blind 'blasting' has become so bad on another board that I frequent that I threw this into my signature and left!

I've been raised on the idea that you dicuss politics with a punch card, a voting booth, and possibly a neighbor or relative that is of like mind. Beyond that, a polite society leaves politics on very low simmer on the back burner, behind everything else. It's NOT as important as everyone thinks it is, as long as they remeber to get out and vote! We've been given a RIGHT in the U.S. to think and vote exactly as we feel fit, and should be ashamed to try to force our opinion on others, as they have that same right.

For the record, I'm conservative.

 

[MK]

I just read that "Air America" with all their hosts and shows are up to a whopping 23 stations nation wide now.

Obviously it is as big a hit with advertisers as it is with listeners.

Conservative radio better watch out. Rush is only on 600 stations with his one show.

 

[jamespowers]

I think I want to address the first point that started this whole thread. Debates are actually a good thing. Not for those that are already decided in their point of view but those who are just sitting by the sidelines. Those who do not write or say a word just might vote and the direction a debate may take could well shape their opinion---and vote.
My advice is simple. Remain consistent in your views. If you believe in something then it should work no matter who says it. It is always about what is right and wrong not who is right and wrong. If you can do this in a debate then your opponent has nothing to say. That might just cause them to erupt into invectives and derogatory rhetoric but that just proves you have made your point. Logic is a funny thing.
We must also realize that some people are just a lost cause. No matter what you say they are going to be against you. This is what happens to GW. So you might as well just agree to disagree and walk away. Neither is going to give ground so be it.
In regard to the polarization of the country, I see it very apparently. You can see a split that shows itself during presidential elections. In the last election the voters were so polarized that the election came down to a miniscule number of votes in the entire scheme of things. That shows polarization. Whatever the parties or groups are doing, it is working. I am not quite sure what the fallout from this will be. People are being taught what to think rather than how to think from school age on now. This cannot be a good thing for the country as a whole if a strict division keeps building. We all have to move in the same general direction for some sort of progress to exist.
Perhaps it might be better to stop screaming and start thinking. Look at what has worked in the past and determine if we are changing for change's sake or if we are really progressing.
This is getting too long and my head is starting to hurt so I will stop here.

Regards to all,

J

 

[The Wingnut]

People are being taught what to think rather than how to think from school age on now.

James, you hit the nail bang on the head with this...our children are being taught simply to learn and not to THINK. They are taught to absorb as much knowledge as possible, without weighing it against wisdom first. Few people ever question what is put before them, they simply read, see or hear it...so it must be true!

'Son, remember, believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.'

'Question Authority' should be changed to 'Question all Knowledge'.

THINK, don't just learn! Contemplate what's before you and make your own conclusion. Many, many people never learn this process.

I've seen few political debates in which ideas are exhanged with any sort of discussion and level-headed contemplation. Politics usually bring a black cloud of invective and excess of emotion. People just can't seem to approach the subject with any sort of common sense or rationality.

I'm growing to love this forum for its maturity and rationality. I'm thankful for the manner in which this is being discussed.

 

[The_Edge]

I work in a profession where I am outnumbered by liberals. A co-worker purchased the "documentary" OUTFOXED: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism and then sent out a company wide email inviting folks to borrow it. I responded with my interest and when my turn came I took it home and watched it.

When I returned it the fellow asked me what I thought. He sat there and smiled as I politely gave my opinions on the whiny, hypocritical, misleading and often times hilarious piece of left-wing propaganda complaining about right-wing propaganda. A short discussion followed. Tempers did not flare, chips were left on shoulders and neither of our stances were changed.

I walked away thinking what is the point? I verbalized my side and vice versa yet it all seemed to cancel each side out to the point that nothing could have been said at all. There is only so much that words can accomplish before it just becomes an exercise in futility. All it does is emphasize the line drawn in the sand. And my resolve.

I see smoke on the horizon.

 

[MK]

This country is becoming more polorized all the time. I think a lot of that comes from the Democratic party moving to the left. It is not the party of J.F.K. or F.D.R. They would be considered republicans today.

The Democtatic party today is racing towards European socialism as fast as it can. The conservative blue-dog dems are far out numbered by the liberals and are pushing the envelope.

People either embrace that or barf and move to the right. As a result the only people in the so called "middle" are usually the un-interested or un-informed.

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by The Wingnut
THINK, don't just learn! Contemplate what's before you and make your own conclusion. Many, many people never learn this process.

I think I forgot a few words in my previous statement. It should have read: People are being taught what to think rather than how to think for themselves.
MK, you are completely right. I have thought the same thing for many years. It is good to know that I am not the only one thinking it.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Nathan Flowers]

I think I was taught to think that you thought of what I was thinking.

Who'd of thunk it?

 

[jamespowers]

HuH?!

 

[Nathan Flowers]

There were a lot of "thoughts, taughts, and thinks" in your last post.

I'm just playing around Hope I didn't offend you.


And, I agree with you and Wingnut both.

 

[jamespowers]

Oh, I thought it was funny but it reminded me of an Abbott and Costello routine---third base. LOL LOL
I think that I thought I was taught to think for myself.

 

[Renderking Fisk]

There are genuine EVIL people out there in the world who actually believe the world would be better off with the government micromanaging every aspect of our lives while there are some genuinely sincere people who are manipulated by the aforementioned who think the government should help those in need. Both are hell bent to prove that it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s actually YOU who are evil if you don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t believe in their line of thinking.

That?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s another aspect of my issue with political debates, instead of an exchange of idea, its about indoctrination.

 

[The_Edge]

Operation: Liberty Rising

The Protest Warriors are going to be conducting Operation: Liberty Rising next week in New York standing against the thousands of anti-Bush protesters. If you are a concerned conservative and want to take a stand I encourage you join with them. I only wish I could be there with you.

 

[CoffeeDude]

It seems to me that both parties are guilty of polarizing our country. As long as Dems and Reps spend their energies pointing fingers or with broad general strokes proclaim "We're good, they're evil.", nothing positve is accomplished. What we end up with is hateful, illogical remarks that equate George Bush with Hitler at one extreme and the petty self-righteous jabs such as "Freedom Fries" on the other.

I agree with RF that debates really don't do anything except excite the commited followers. Although I am fairly certain as to who I am voting for, it is not without serious reservations (I shall approach the voting booth with some trepidation), they are not THE final authority in matters of this country. As whoever wins, my responsiblity to the office of President does not change (my willingness to fulfil that responsibility can, at times, be a difficult discipline)

 

[jamespowers]

Yep, you got it CD. Those are good examples of polarization. The problem I have is that it will eventually lead to a very 1984ish situation in which one ideology will rule with complete intolerance toward any other. At that point it will be time to either fight or run.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Renderking Fisk]

Did everyone listen to NBC?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s ?¢‚Ǩ?ìMeet The Press?¢‚Ǩ? this past Sunday? It?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s a perfect example of why I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m feeling disenfranchised.

You can read the transcript here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5858461/

When Rudy Gullinani was being interviewed, what did he talk about? Most of his conversation was about NATIONAL security, what more has to be done and the future of the Republican Party. Little rhetoric but mostly issues.

Then when Madam Hillary was on, she was paraphrasing the DNC talking points and half the time she was blaming the Republicans with everything that?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s wrong with the United States and then ?¢‚Ǩ?ìlightened things up?¢‚Ǩ? with her fake laugh. When Russet brought up the poll with her being the #1 most hated democrat in the United States, she blamed the Republicans and said that we weren?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t read for an out spoken woman.

Madam Hillary has no platform to stand on other then hate, it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s a house of cards that she?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s living in?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ each card has a statement of delusion aquatinting her husband of any wrong doing and putting the blame on the ?¢‚Ǩ?ìVast Right Wing conspiracy?¢‚Ǩ?.

I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m not posting this to cause Madam Hillary bashing?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ but to illustrate what?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s wrong with the debate process. Tim didn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t do enough to keep her on target.

 

[jamespowers]

I saw that interview with the Madam. Nothing like a Clinton to make you want to throw a brick through the TV. LOL
I think you assessment is about the same as mine there.