Has anyone seen a Golden Era leather jacket made from Horween CXL FQHH or Steer

[Plumbline]

Genuine question guys .. following on from recent posts. I must have handled 1000's of leather jackets ( vintage and non vintage in almost 30 years of collecting them in various guises). Of those which I have owned and seen in various collections I cannot recall EVER seeing a vintage jacket manufactured from Horween CXL FQHH or CXL Steer ( it's pretty unique stuff and very noticeable even in vintage form).

I'm not knocking Horweens excellent leathers .. which are truely among the finest leathers in the world ..... I'm just trying to fathom where the fascination with this stuff came from for vintage repro jackets. It makes stunning jackets ( I have many of them). I have seen many vintage horsehide jackets and also steerhide jackets but none have resembled Horween CXL. Many have been similar but none have had the unique hand and appearance of CXL. Indeed FEW have had the weight and heft of a Horween CXL jacket the majority being considerably lighter.

The oldest one I have seen which I could genuinely vouch for being manufactured from CXL was an early 90's brown highwayman ( which I actually owned) and one of Aero's first ... which sadly went missing in the management change debacle. I'd LOVE to see pics of any actual vintage ( 1930's, 40's or 50's Horween CXL jackets).

Anyone help ?

 

[Capesofwrath]

I've had a few old jackets in my time too. US, French, British, and German. Of the forties and fifties US jackets I've owned and handled none were CXL hide. I have a forties Montgomery jacket now which I had to basically take apart to re stitch and I could see the fairly utilitarian way it was made. That jacket like the other old US made ones I've had is made of FQHH, but lighter than CXL and arguably more suited to a jacket.

I like CXL too whatever animal hide is used as the raw product but the fashion for jackets made of CXL horse is fairly recent. It is a shoe leather really and although it breaks it and softens beautifully eventually it remains a heavy material, and I don't think for one moment that the original makers of these jackets would have used it. I suspect it might have been Aero who were among the first to make jackets out of it and popularised it for that use. But that is just a guess. It's become something of a fetish now and a lot of people think it is what the originals were made of but I'm pretty sure none were.

 

[thor]

Even watching old 1940's movies that feature characters in leather jackets, the leather seems thinner with more drape and flexibility then some of the super heavy-duty (4oz +) HH and steer hide jackets being built today by some manufacturers that seek to emulate 1920-1950 era leather jackets.

 

[Smithy]

This is a fantastic question and one which I don't think I've ever heard in the 7 years I've been a member here.

We know that CXL has a long history and it's not a new leather but it does seem that making jackets out of it could actually be a new thing. Funny how there's the connotation that it's indicative of vintage jackets but actually as a jacket leather it might very well be a fairly modern application.

Would be neat to know when the first jacket made out of either CXL horse or steer was made.

 

[Edward]

The weight issue has been noted before in the context of vintage British jacket - Baron Kurtz is the guy to ask about that. My recollection is that only the Germans were making jackets quite so heavy as some of us like them now back then. I've handled a lot of original (Sixties era, in particular) Lewis Leathers jackets, and it was shocking to my modern fingers just how flimsy some of them were. I cut my teeth on biker jackets back in the 80s, and I really like leather that resembles armour!

 

[Vespizzare]

Maybe this is old news, but I read those articles that FredS was good enough to post the links to. One said that chromexel was used in machinery as a gasket or something. I don't where or when they started using it in apparel though.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Well there's one merchant here who will advise you that this leather is best for footwear, not jackets. I can't vouch for the accuracy of this but I agree with the sentiment. Never much liked it around my shoulders even though it does look beautiful. Also heard various others including the Baron mention that vintage jackets were usually a lighter hide.

 

[Capesofwrath]

The weight issue has been noted before in the context of vintage British jacket - Baron Kurtz is the guy to ask about that. My recollection is that only the Germans were making jackets quite so heavy as some of us like them now back then. I've handled a lot of original (Sixties era, in particular) Lewis Leathers jackets, and it was shocking to my modern fingers just how flimsy some of them were. I cut my teeth on biker jackets back in the 80s, and I really like leather that resembles armour!

I think that may be the key. In the eighties and nineties the interest in heavy leather for jackets really took off. Before then drape was more of an issue and most jackets even bike jackets were not made of very heavy hide. So an enterprising company seeing which way the wind was blowing sourced this hide to make jackets with, and found customers were willing to turn a blind eye to how uncomfortable it can be to wear because it looked so nice. I plead guilty to that too, though I have gone back to lighter leather in one of my new jackets this year.

As I said above I think that company might well have been Aero which without having to look it up, was I think maybe losing its access to Connolly leather as its top hide about then? It turned out that the Horween leather with a little PR glossing and re writing of history was a winner, and became the company's signature hide. They'd acquired dragons so to speak.

But as I also said above a lot of that is speculation and it might be another company that used it first around that time. But I don't think it was much earlier than that.

 

[Smithy]

The weight issue has been noted before in the context of vintage British jacket - Baron Kurtz is the guy to ask about that. My recollection is that only the Germans were making jackets quite so heavy as some of us like them now back then. I've handled a lot of original (Sixties era, in particular) Lewis Leathers jackets, and it was shocking to my modern fingers just how flimsy some of them were. I cut my teeth on biker jackets back in the 80s, and I really like leather that resembles armour!

Too true Edward. I've handled a few "vintage" jackets and in all honesty none came close to CXL hides in terms of thickness nor weight, although I am by no means an expert and I bow to others here who have handled and owned far more than me.

Good on Plumbline for bringing this up because as far as I can recall this has never been discussed here (Edward you've been a member as long as me - can you remember this coming up or being asked?).

And Seb, I think CXL hides are very subjective. You either like the weight and feel or it's too much and you don't. I happen to love the stuff, I've got an Aero Barnstormer in FQHH and am just ordering a jacket in CXL steer. Can't wait.

 

[Capesofwrath]

Too true Edward. I've handled a few "vintage" jackets and in all honesty none came close to CXL hides in terms of thickness nor weight, although I am by no means an expert and I bow to others here who have handled and owned far more than me.

Good on Plumbline for bringing this up because as far as I can recall this has never been discussed here (Edward you've been a member as long as me - can you remember this coming up or being asked?).

And Seb, I think CXL hides are very subjective. You either like the weight and feel or it's too much and you don't. I happen to love the stuff, I've got an Aero Barnstormer in FQHH and am just ordering a jacket in CXL steer. Can't wait.

I don't think it's come up like this but it has been alluded to in various threads here I think. Quite a few people have commented on how old HH jackets are not as thick and heavy as modern CXL ones, including me I have to say.

I never thought that Aero jackets were authentic in that regard though. I'd owned old US jackets long before Aero started and knew their jackets weren't made of the same weight hide as the originals. Not that it matters really. You can have a jacket made of whatever you like within reason and it's your own choice whether you want a more authentic weight in a repro, or a nice comfortable jacket to lounge about in, or something like CXL which really stands out.

 

[Smithy]

You can have a jacket made of whatever you like within reason and it's your own choice whether you want a more authentic weight in a repro, or a nice comfortable jacket to lounge about in, or something like CXL which really stands out.

Bang on the money Capes, the nice thing now is that you can have a jacket made, to the pattern you want, and in the hide that you want. We're spoilt in this day and age!

It's just funny how if you really want an exact repro of a vintage jacket, then you probably really shouldn't go for CXL anything.

But they are such nice looking leathers

BTW, love your new jacket, looks a million bucks.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

The weight issue has been noted before in the context of vintage British jacket - Baron Kurtz is the guy to ask about that.

Yes, it's a drum a few of us have banged for quite a few years. Not only British jackets (which are generally made of exceptionally light hide); the American ones were nowhere near as heavy either. To their credit, I don't recall any of the Mfr's claiming to be authentic in this regard.

My recollection is that only the Germans were making jackets quite so heavy as some of us like them now back then.

To some extent. The French could also crank up the weight, and I don't have enough experience of eastern European stuff but teh Russian gear I've seen (cold war era and earlier) is also exceptionally heavy. Mostly cow ("heavy bull") in Germany.

..............--------------...............

To answer the purpose of this thread, I haven't seen a vintage jacket made of such heavy hide, and tbh I don't think I ever will. My question is whether in the era a man wearing a workwear jacket would actively seek such weight on the shoulders. I think not. You want protection without adding too much to the effort of manual work.

 

[Smithy]

To answer the purpose of this thread, I haven't seen a vintage jacket made of such heavy hide, and tbh I don't think I ever will. My question is whether in the era a man wearing a workwear jacket would actively seek such weight on the shoulders. I think not. You want protection without adding too much to the effort of manual work.

Thanks BK. It seems like finding an actual vintage CXL jacket from the Golden Era might be like chasing unicorn horns.

 

[Capesofwrath]

..............--------------...............

To answer the purpose of this thread, I haven't seen a vintage jacket made of such heavy hide, and tbh I don't think I ever will. My question is whether in the era a man wearing a workwear jacket would actively seek such weight on the shoulders. I think not. You want protection without adding too much to the effort of manual work.

Yes and I think it has to be said that the original jackets and their modern high end near repros are very different beasts. I wrote above about an old forties US jacket I have which I had to do some work on and how it seemed to be fairly utilitarian in the way it was made. But they were work and then leisurewear for the man in the street, not expensive and carefully constructed jackets like Aero and AL produce. The quality of the stitching and hide matching was not in the same league really and the modern interpretations are much higher quality jackets all round.

I wonder if anyone knows how much a Sears Hercules jacket from say 1948 would cost in today's dollars?

 

[Don Tomaso]

So, todays jackets are simply better than the so-called "golden area"-stuff (which I call balls anyway, "golden area", good god :eusa_doh. Isn't that funny?

 

[Capesofwrath]

I don't think you could say the same for the real modern equivalent jackets which are bought by people in the street now. The fashion jackets. Those old jackets are a lot better made than most of them.

 

[Sloan1874]

The couple of original 40s jackets I tried on in vintage shops in London's Brick Lane the leather was reminiscent of shinki - it had the same sort of 'hand'.

 

[tonypaj]

I bought my son a 40s German jacket, seems to me as bullet proof as the present FQHH CXL ones (pardon the pun). Well, I only have one modern FQHH Cxl left to compare with it.

I've always had the same problem with the the Aero FQHH CXL jackets, you need to warm them up from the outside and sweat a little from the inside. Then they're perfect. Cold from either side, it gets a bit uncomfortable, not too bad, but you could have better choices. Like my 50s jacket from Canada, way more comfortable in colder weather. I believe it is cow, no clue about tanning, but all I can say it is way easier to wear than the heavy Aero FQHH in most circumstances.

Yes, it's a drum a few of us have banged for quite a few years. Not only British jackets (which are generally made of exceptionally light hide); the American ones were nowhere near as heavy either. To their credit, I don't recall any of the Mfr's claiming to be authentic in this regard.



To some extent. The French could also crank up the weight, and I don't have enough experience of eastern European stuff but teh Russian gear I've seen (cold war era and earlier) is also exceptionally heavy. Mostly cow ("heavy bull") in Germany.

..............--------------...............

To answer the purpose of this thread, I haven't seen a vintage jacket made of such heavy hide, and tbh I don't think I ever will. My question is whether in the era a man wearing a workwear jacket would actively seek such weight on the shoulders. I think not. You want protection without adding too much to the effort of manual work.

 

[Edward]

So an enterprising company seeing which way the wind was blowing sourced this hide to make jackets with, and found customers were willing to turn a blind eye to how uncomfortable it can be to wear because it looked so nice. I plead guilty to that too, though I have gone back to lighter leather in one of my new jackets this year.

It's all down to personal taste, I imagine - I'm certainly not going to go all Stu from Lost Worlds about it (personally - and ths is merely a personal opinon - I've always found the idea of anyone caring whether others perceive them as "manly" to be a bit sad, really), but I definitely like a thick leather in a jacket. I've never found it uncomfortable to wear fqhh even from the off - apart from in warmer weather, obviously.

Yeah, Lost Worlds - he's always been producing super heavy stuff to my knowledge, doesn't like to do anything else I gather.

As I said above I think that company might well have been Aero which without having to look it up, was I think maybe losing its access to Connolly leather as its top hide about then? It turned out that the Horween leather with a little PR glossing and re writing of history was a winner, and became the company's signature hide. They'd acquired dragons so to speak.

But as I also said above a lot of that is speculation and it might be another company that used it first around that time. But I don't think it was much earlier than that.

Maybe. I've never handled a Connolly hide Aero. I do know the primary use of that hide was for luxury car seats. Aero have always said they stopped doing it because it became prohibitvely expensive and would have meant raising the cost of jackets exponentially.

Too true Edward. I've handled a few "vintage" jackets and in all honesty none came close to CXL hides in terms of thickness nor weight, although I am by no means an expert and I bow to others here who have handled and owned far more than me.

Good on Plumbline for bringing this up because as far as I can recall this has never been discussed here (Edward you've been a member as long as me - can you remember this coming up or being asked?).

It's been raised many times, though I don't think ever as its own direct thread. Of course, with a lot of folks weighing up their options between AL and Aero currently and one of the differences being that Aero have access to certain hides to which AL do not, while AL make other offerings - last I looked AL seemed to be keen to drive in a fairly exotic direction for hide types - it's inevitable that this would come to the fore now. Variety, as ever, is the spice of life - properly appraised of what they're buying and what its properties are (insofar as one can generalise in respect of something organic), more choice is always a good thing.

So, todays jackets are simply better than the so-called "golden area"-stuff (which I call balls anyway, "golden area", good god :eusa_doh. Isn't that funny?

I should hope so, given we're paying luxury product prices for something that would have been very utilitarian back in the day! See also; selvedge denim...

I don't think you could say the same for the real modern equivalent jackets which are bought by people in the street now. The fashion jackets. Those old jackets are a lot better made than most of them.

Back in the day the 'disposable fashion' concept had yet to catch on; also, the garment industry wasn't as globalised as it is now, so there was much less taking advantage of real terms differences in economies the other side of the world. Also, some of the products being replicated were a bit more run of the mill than our favourite niche market suppliers these days, so economies of scale must have played into it somewhere. Would definitely be interesting to comparel ike for near resemblence. I think, though, the very nature of the likes of Aero as a niche, luxury product company means that across an entire run quality is likely to be more consistent than was the case in much bigger runs, especially military contract stuff.

I bought my son a 40s German jacket, seems to me as bullet proof as the present FQHH CXL ones (pardon the pun). Well, I only have one modern FQHH Cxl left to compare with it.

I've always had the same problem with the the Aero FQHH CXL jackets, you need to warm them up from the outside and sweat a little from the inside. Then they're perfect. Cold from either side, it gets a bit uncomfortable, not too bad, but you could have better choices. Like my 50s jacket from Canada, way more comfortable in colder weather. I believe it is cow, no clue about tanning, but all I can say it is way easier to wear than the heavy Aero FQHH in most circumstances.

Can't honestly say I've ever found any significant difference in that respect, but then I'm not out in the horse in extremes of cold. Come Winter, I'm into the shearlings.

 

[tonypaj]

Maybe. I've never handled a Connolly hide Aero. I do know the primary use of that hide was for luxury car seats. Aero have always said they stopped doing it because it became prohibitvely expensive and would have meant raising the cost of jackets exponentially.


Can't honestly say I've ever found any significant difference in that respect, but then I'm not out in the horse in extremes of cold. Come Winter, I'm into the shearlings.

I have a Connelly Highwayman. And FQHH CXL one. Way different, one supple straight away, one stiff unless you spend a good while wearing it. I'm not out in extreme cold with leather jackets either, but extreme cold where I live is -10 to -20 C. And up in the mountains, where it gets colder, just give me modern stuff that "breathes".