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H’oly Grail Westerns and Fedoras

kenbid

New in Town
Messages
13
We
Howdy! Sounds like you’re a true enthusiast and probably have a lot more experience with high end modern westerns than most of us here.

You used the word “box” a couple times in a context I’m not familiar with are you referring to the crown or something else?

The tastes of the western hat buying public has changed over the years. Most of the current market would not be at all happy with a high end western from the 1940s or earlier.

Almost all custom hat makers use beaver felt made by just two companies…and there is a third that is making some inroads. None of the modern felt can be made into hats that exactly mimic the pre-war high end hats. The same goes for those high “X” count top end modern factory hats; although, it’s also a product of what the customers want and very few want they type of felf found in the vintage hats.

There is only so much that can be done with a hat, any hat. It’s not as though the hatters can make a better hat but they don’t want to invest the time because they’ll price themselves out of this market. More time, effort, specialized tooling, etc. will not get you a better hat…unless you’re talking about a poor hatter to begin with. When one of my favorite hatters finishes a $500 custom beaver western it’s because it’s as good as it’s going to get. I’ve also test to see a $2,000 modern custom that matches one of those $500 hats when it comes to making a vintage type of hat. Don’t think that I’m saying that all quality custom hatters can make the same hats. I’ve found hatters who can approximate the vintage felt better than others, but they can’t match it due to the felt they are starting with. I’ve found a hatter that can get very close with fedoras, but the western hat bodies the felters supply just aren’t as conducive. You can get a more vintage-like hat from modern felt, but I’ve never seen anyone get close to duplicating it. There is just no way to message a pre-war hat out of modern felt.

I’ve not been overly impressed with most of the Twenty-Fives I’ve seen. This is more a product of the era they were made as they have mostly been late 1950s or 1960s. Twenty is a more common designation for dress hats (fedoras etc.), but there are some in the western line. The only Twenty Open Road I’ve owned was a great hat. The early 1950s and earlier fedora Twentys are very nice and to my way of thinking they are better than modern custom fedoras costing $1,500 or more (and who doesn’t love a Cavanagh edge?).

In my opinion, a 1940s or earlier Stetson 7X, or even the lower but rarer 5X, will be a better hat than a modern $5,000 Stetson. I’d also bet that the owners of the $5,000 hat would disagree.

I’ve had two Churchill Fifty hats and one Churchill 100 pass through my hands. I’ve never seen a modern hat that matches them. I recently had an early Stetson One Hundred come to me and that hat was phenomenal, much better than the late 1950s and early 1960s One Hundreds I’ve had before, and the later One Hundreds were still superior to the modern 500X etc. hats I’ve handled. Then again, this is because I like the attributes of vintage hats and the majority of modern western hat buyers do not.

I’ve owned a half dozen O’Farrell custom hats (all secondhand purchases that I’ve sold on) and even the earlier ones have not impressed me, but others love them. It depends what you like. My nicest modern custom western was made by Montecristi Hatswoks in New Mexico. It’s a fantastic hat, but it’s a totally different hat than a vintage hat. I don’t compare them as they were made in different eras to meet the preferences of different customers. I’ve had two customs by Butch Dorer and I’ve not been impressed, not to say they are “bad” hats, but just not what I ideally want.

Finding pre-war westerns in good shape is a real challenge and usually requires either deep pockets or a lot of time and often both. That said, I’ll take a pristine 1920s Stetson No. 1 Quality (a low end hat) over any of the modern 100-50000X hats. A nice, albeit small sized, Churchill 100 sold last week at auction for less than $200 with its fitted suitcase; it’s a 1950s or ‘60s hat, but as you know they are special hats.

I live in both worlds when it comes to westerns. I own several modern hats and I wear them regularly. I have a place for them. They are the tool I want for some circumstances. I’ve even commissioned customs knowing the felt was going to be very stiff and not at all what I like about vintage hats. I understand why the modern western hat buyer likes this type of felt. It has its place. However, for most of my purposes and with my lifestyle, the vintage hats are what I normally prefer.

Good luck hunting for your vintage hats….just stay away from those in 7 ⅝ or 7 ¾ hats. ;)
recently had 2 positive experiences on the bay with you. I think fri - hold the suitcase to save shipping costs.. the Churchill 50 I got ruined me. You guys here are right vintage pre 1960 only way to go. I started with 50’s fedoras which were easier to get pre Covid years. Then I did some westerns. I then went on akubra run. For the money good rugged hat. They do not look good across a room but good in rain and sturdy. Then I went to beaver Stetson resistol and kept trying to get to the higher end stuff. Never got over 200x. The cowboy wearers have no knowledge or understanding of what a good hat is. The akubra styling stinks, the rich look of a modern stetson 6x is missing, just like a rugged everyday beater kind of hat. When it comes to looks out of the box a new Mahan or Stetson is tops. Bunny fur is what it is.

Before the Churchill I did not get it, now I do. There is no comparison. That being said the $5000 stetson might be very much hand finished and they mix in chinchilla. I believe the box is what the hatters put the felt on, the liners etc.I think some of them buy from companies that sell them. I have one ofarrell, sort of akubra like but better felt looks better to but sturdy.. so the $5000 stetson probably cannot be as good as a Churchill 50, and many others. Now resistol has a double eagle cowboy for $2500.list. They take the best pieces of the beaver fur and make the felt from that so you are breaking out of the mold here. I have never seen or touched one. Larry mahan makes a 1000x imperial, no beaver just mink so this too breaks mold. Probably lot more mink furriers running around than beaver but felt makers? It could be a superior hat or junk?I think this too is $2500 list. Mink could take weather but not like beaver.
I intend to stay vintage cause you can really know what you are gonna get versus how good is this Stetson 500x. If I’m gonna just bum around in bright sun, rain dust etc I would not want my great vintage hats on (when I have them) but I would take an akubra in a heart beat. I even have some waterproof wool beaters I can use. If it was risk of rain I would stuff a plastic hat cover in my pocket if I wore a special hat. Wearing a high end vintage hat in rain because it can take it is like wearing a $40,000 Rolex divers watch to actually dive with instead of $100 timed or Casio.
I spent a lot on modern westerns. I have them, they look good, are not that good but look it, and they last long time. There are no holy grail modern hats except maybe those two I mentioned. I had a mink lined jacket once and I think was not supposed to get wet. Had a nutria one too reversible with cashmere, both from saks fifth and I think these would be a disaster in rain. Never had a nutria or mink felt hat. Would find it interesting but not for big bucks.
So now I look for holy grail vintage. Hard search.

Any places better to look other than eBay?
Thanks for all your help
Ken
 

AbbaDatDeHat

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,829
We

recently had 2 positive experiences on the bay with you. I think fri - hold the suitcase to save shipping costs.. the Churchill 50 I got ruined me. You guys here are right vintage pre 1960 only way to go. I started with 50’s fedoras which were easier to get pre Covid years. Then I did some westerns. I then went on akubra run. For the money good rugged hat. They do not look good across a room but good in rain and sturdy. Then I went to beaver Stetson resistol and kept trying to get to the higher end stuff. Never got over 200x. The cowboy wearers have no knowledge or understanding of what a good hat is. The akubra styling stinks, the rich look of a modern stetson 6x is missing, just like a rugged everyday beater kind of hat. When it comes to looks out of the box a new Mahan or Stetson is tops. Bunny fur is what it is.

Before the Churchill I did not get it, now I do. There is no comparison. That being said the $5000 stetson might be very much hand finished and they mix in chinchilla. I believe the box is what the hatters put the felt on, the liners etc.I think some of them buy from companies that sell them. I have one ofarrell, sort of akubra like but better felt looks better to but sturdy.. so the $5000 stetson probably cannot be as good as a Churchill 50, and many others. Now resistol has a double eagle cowboy for $2500.list. They take the best pieces of the beaver fur and make the felt from that so you are breaking out of the mold here. I have never seen or touched one. Larry mahan makes a 1000x imperial, no beaver just mink so this too breaks mold. Probably lot more mink furriers running around than beaver but felt makers? It could be a superior hat or junk?I think this too is $2500 list. Mink could take weather but not like beaver.
I intend to stay vintage cause you can really know what you are gonna get versus how good is this Stetson 500x. If I’m gonna just bum around in bright sun, rain dust etc I would not want my great vintage hats on (when I have them) but I would take an akubra in a heart beat. I even have some waterproof wool beaters I can use. If it was risk of rain I would stuff a plastic hat cover in my pocket if I wore a special hat. Wearing a high end vintage hat in rain because it can take it is like wearing a $40,000 Rolex divers watch to actually dive with instead of $100 timed or Casio.
I spent a lot on modern westerns. I have them, they look good, are not that good but look it, and they last long time. There are no holy grail modern hats except maybe those two I mentioned. I had a mink lined jacket once and I think was not supposed to get wet. Had a nutria one too reversible with cashmere, both from saks fifth and I think these would be a disaster in rain. Never had a nutria or mink felt hat. Would find it interesting but not for big bucks.
So now I look for holy grail vintage. Hard search.

Any places better to look other than eBay?
Thanks for all your help
Ken
Put a WTB…”want to buy” in the classifieds here after you decide what you want.
For instance: WTB vintage Stetson nutria western, size xxx, (and whatever specifics you require).
You might be surprised the results.
And yes, a Churchill 50 will “spoil” you….forever.
B
 

johnnycanuck

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,008
Location
Alberta
Interesting question on “Holy Grail” western and Fedoras. For a while the Stetson Whippet was one of the most sought after hats on the lounge. Than the Stetson playboy. A lot go for the Open road. But are they the highest quality on the planet? Just style? Brand recognition? I have fantastic 100% beaver fedoras from Art Fawcett. But years later they are showing their age and need a good cleaning. So no mater the quality they still need maintenance. I know for myself I have been keeping an eye out for a Resistol kitten soft, self conforming cowboy hat. Seen one at a garage sale years ago. Beautiful, soft but good body hold. Just not my size. Still think about it from time to time. So right now that would be my holy grail hat.
Johnny
 
Messages
19,001
Location
Central California
A hat that you can’t/won’t wear in the rain does not strike me as a useful hat.


That would rule out ever single Panama hat. I’m not going that far. Good in all conditions is nice, but I’ll accept some limitations. It’s rare what we see any rain for the six months that summer lasts here, and when rain is in the forecast it’s an easy thing to choose my hat for the day with rain in mind. We all judge utility differently I guess.
 
Messages
10,839
Location
vancouver, canada
Nutria makes a good hat. I'll get back to you on the beaver/mink felt whenever I get mine back from BSHW.
I treated (indulged) myself to a Winchester beaver/mink blend hat. They do not divulge the mink content and as my hatter said at the time....they might just have a mink walk through the factory on the day they felt and consider that to be mink content.

Honestly I put the beaver/mink blend hat beside my other 100% beaver hats and cannot tell, feel or discern any difference between them.
 
Messages
10,839
Location
vancouver, canada
That would rule out ever single Panama hat. I’m not going that far. Good in all conditions is nice, but I’ll accept some limitations. It’s rare what we see any rain for the six months that summer lasts here, and when rain is in the forecast it’s an easy thing to choose my hat for the day with rain in mind. We all judge utility differently I guess.
While up here in the rainforest if I feared wearing a hat in the rain.....well I would never be wearing a hat. The risk is wearing my Panama in July/August and still getting caught in a shower. But on the plus side my surroundings are very green!
 

kenbid

New in Town
Messages
13
I understand what you’re saying about mink blend. The Larry Mahan 1000x imperial is all mink. This could break the mold. Could also be stiff and worse than their 100x? I came into a modern resistol 200x. Was I think just tried on, not worn. It is super soft, thick and nice. Hat itself is stiff. The early r-‘s and before rock. I am coming to believe chutchillltd are maybe best but I never had a Stetson 100. My Churchill is a 50 and do not really know why one needs a better hat, lol.

Shame what the modern hat have become. One day if I see a Mahan 1000x imperial at a low enough price I might jump in but not got large money. Could be stiff bristly loser? If anyone has ever handled one let us know.
 
Messages
19,001
Location
Central California
I understand what you’re saying about mink blend. The Larry Mahan 1000x imperial is all mink. This could break the mold. Could also be stiff and worse than their 100x? I came into a modern resistol 200x. Was I think just tried on, not worn. It is super soft, thick and nice. Hat itself is stiff. The early r-‘s and before rock. I am coming to believe chutchillltd are maybe best but I never had a Stetson 100. My Churchill is a 50 and do not really know why one needs a better hat, lol.

Shame what the modern hat have become. One day if I see a Mahan 1000x imperial at a low enough price I might jump in but not got large money. Could be stiff bristly loser? If anyone has ever handled one let us know.


It’s interesting how we see hats differently. In your post you list “thick” as a desirable attribute whereas I think thin and dense are signs of better felt.

Not to harp on, but most of the hats with high X counts came about long after the decline in American hat making. A lot of us believe that even the best felt hats made today which sell for thousands of dollars don’t compare favorably with…for example, a 5X Clear Beaver from the 1930s. On the other hand, I own modern custom westerns costing under $600 that I also think are far superior to the pinnacle offerings from the big companies that cost thousands. Of course it works in reverse too: the average hat buyer spending $2,000 or more on a modern western, be it factory or custom, would probably not like my best western customs or the 1930s hats. To mix it up even more, some of the best felt hats ever made didn’t contain any, or only small amounts of, beaver, mink, nutria, or any of the “better” furs. Rabbit and European hare made some of the most incredible soft felt hats ever made…sometimes with a bit of beaver in the mix, but not always.

In some ways it becomes which is better, a Ferrari or a ¾ ton diesel pickup? The application and the expectations make all the difference. For all I know modern felters can make the vintage style felt (at least that made after the ban on mercury), but choose not to because of the preferences of the majority of the current hat buying population.

I suspect that if you like your Churchill 50 you won’t be overly impressed with any of the current western felt as made by the majority of companies and custom shops regardless of the price. My best modern stiff/firm western felt is a custom hat made by a small shop in New Mexico. The hand of the felt is buttery smooth and it’s a grand hat. However, I’d choose the 1930s 3X, a 1X nutria, or even a mint 1930s No. 1 Quality, over it in a heartbeat. Sometimes I wish I didn’t know what was possible so I wouldn’t know what I was missing out on.
 
Messages
10,839
Location
vancouver, canada
Interesting question on “Holy Grail” western and Fedoras. For a while the Stetson Whippet was one of the most sought after hats on the lounge. Than the Stetson playboy. A lot go for the Open road. But are they the highest quality on the planet? Just style? Brand recognition? I have fantastic 100% beaver fedoras from Art Fawcett. But years later they are showing their age and need a good cleaning. So no mater the quality they still need maintenance. I know for myself I have been keeping an eye out for a Resistol kitten soft, self conforming cowboy hat. Seen one at a garage sale years ago. Beautiful, soft but good body hold. Just not my size. Still think about it from time to time. So right now that would be my holy grail hat.
Johnny
At least with a quality hat like Art produced it is an item well worth the $$ in having it restored. Send it to a good hatter and it should come back looking like new with another life to live.
 
Messages
10,839
Location
vancouver, canada
I read the article, and found it very interesting that camel urine and human urine were used to improve the felting process, attributed to the nitrogen content in urine (urea is the main compound in urine - also being the cheaper and most widely sold/used fertilizer in agriculture). The urine of a french hatter that was taking mercury (mercurous chloride, HgCl) as treatment for his syphilis, produced much better felts. As a result of this observation (breakthrough!), the hat industry started using mercuric nitrate Hg(NO₃)2.
I'll keep this bit of trivial information in my head - who knows, maybe one day I'll put it to use on beater hats with poor or cheap felts. :)
Raul
If you sell said hat onward I ask for full disclosure!
 
Messages
10,839
Location
vancouver, canada
The long and short of it is that the felts are denser. The mercury solution altered the texture of the individual fibers such that they felted together tighter. I can't swear to it, but I thought I remember reading somewhere around here that mercury felts were advantageous for black hats specifically as well (for dye absorption).
I had read in a book on the felting process that the 'carrotting' procedure using mercury made it easier/more efficient/more effective in eliminating the coarse outer guard hairs from the fibre making for a softer/plusher felt.
 

kenbid

New in Town
Messages
13
I recently got a 1950’2 I think 7x clear beaver Stetson.very nice but my Churchill 50 much nicer.. the pre 50’s hat are as a rule great. Hard to come by though but great hats
 

Yahoody

One Too Many
Messages
1,112
Location
Great Basin
>Then I went to beaver Stetson resistol and kept trying to get to the higher end stuff. Never got over 200x. The cowboy wearers have no knowledge or understanding of what a good hat is.

:rolleyes: Oh, My :D


Interesting conversation. I think Brett sums up most of it. He and I disagree on what makes a good hat for our own preferences. But we both are fully aware of what makes a good hat for our own use.

The whole X thing is long in the past and now, for the most part simply nonsense. 1000X? Get real. Quality hat blanks are either 100% beaver or a combination of different fur felts. Pick you price point to your liking these days. Because there is no more mercury being used, thankfully. Rodney sells a $3K cashmere/beaver blend. http://www.northvalleyhatco.com/hat-prices.html

If I thought, I needed a $3K hat I'd have him make me one. I simply can't find the need. I've made a good number of hats, so I have a clue of how a decent hat is made and the felts used. More importantly how the hatter treats the felt while making a hat. I also wear a hat daily, so I am well aware of what I (repeating here "I") require in a hat.

Just like in anything, there are folks who have a better understanding of the subject than others. If you are judging hats by some inflated X count, you don't have a very good understanding of modern felt. If you think any modern Resistol or Stetson is a decent felt "hat" you're looking in the wrong place IMO. Their quality in any hat has long been surpassed by many modern custom hatters, all the while most of them, generally building on Winchester 100% beaver blanks or beaver blends. You don't have to look far to do better than any brand name Western hat IMO.

I have seen some amazing fedoras made of luxurious felts. I've seen more than one of Rodney's $3K cashmere blend hats. All are nice hats. None of them would be my "holy grail". What I pay Rodney for is the fit. But he isn't the only one with a Conformateur. If I was living abroad, and looking for a fedora, I'd be looking for the best hat makers in the biggest cities still using a Conformateur.

My answer might be, "what is your use"? Dapper Dan out for the day? Or a tool that you use every day?

It is the search that makes it fun. I hope you enjoy your journey.
 
Last edited:

Just Daniel

One Too Many
Messages
1,451
Ken,

Since we’re going over a lot of Stetsons, I’ll add to what you already seem to have discovered:

First, work your way to a pre-50s 7X Clear Beaver. No plastic on the liner. These are very hard to find, but they are a start point or standard of comparison for the holy grail hats.

Since you are talking about super fine hats, look for a pre-40s 3X. They are completely different animals.

A note about Stetson 100s: Alan said it best when he noted that he had owned several but always ended up selling them. They are great hats, they may be necessary for a collection, but those pre-50s 7Xs just seem nicer.

Should you happen across a 5X CB it will be nicer than all of the above.

And since you are talking about grails…..I will go out on a limb and say the hat you want is a Dobbs or Knox 100. They are extremely rare but really great hats and in my experience superior to the average Stetson 7X or 100

Good luck. What size hat do you wear? We want to know the competition.

Dan




I recently got a 1950’2 I think 7x clear beaver Stetson.very nice but my Churchill 50 much nicer.. the pre 50’s hat are as a rule great. Hard to come by though but great hats
 

RossRYoung

Practically Family
Messages
940
It would be great if we could get the 5x CB bumped with some current impressions and pics of current owners. As far as I’m aware, besides myself it’s only Alan and Vic. I don’t mean to sound defeating but these seem to be the hardest to come by of any felt offering from Stetson. But as others have hypothesized, it would be hard to imagine anything else coming close to the moldable density (not so much the hand) of the pre war CB felt. @Jesse John just had recently worked with mine, and I offered to send mine to Alan for a hand to hand review with his more impressive, albeit slightly newer, western 5x. I’m hoping to get others perspective on the 5x, as I have very limited exposure to other felt types. The crown on my 100 seems to have similar density to the 5x, but does not shape nearly as easily or as intricately as the 5x, which seems to take any dry bash you can think of.
 

glider

A-List Customer
Messages
389
Part of the cost of that 5000-dollar Stetson is in the gold hat band buckle and the diamond in the hat band. A lady at the Stetson factory outlet in St Joe Mo. had one of those 5000$ hats that someone had ordered. She was kind enough to show it to me knowing that there was no way in hell I was buying one. She said the hat could be ordered without the expensive hatband, I don't recall if she told me the cost.
 

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