Financial Times: "‘Bespoke’ ruling fails to suit Savile Row"

[Edward]

This story may be of interest to folks:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/530912f8-3c9b-11dd-b958-0000779fd2ac.html

"By Megan Murphy, Law Courts Correspondent

Published: June 17 2008 20:00 | Last updated: June 18 2008 00:16

London’s Savile Row tailors, long synonymous with the best of British craftsmanship, have lost their centuries-old grip on the word “bespoke’’ as a new breed of retailers seeks to bring made-to-measure menswear to the masses.

The Advertising Standards Authority has dismissed a complaint that flogging suits not entirely handmade as “bespoke’’ is misleading.

On the street where the word is said to have originated and where even the most basic pin-striped ensemble can run to as much as £5,000, it will be a decision that raises even the most genteel of eyebrows."

See link for full story.

 

[Creeping Past]

This story may be of interest to folks:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/530912f8-3c9b-11dd-b958-0000779fd2ac.html

"By Megan Murphy, Law Courts Correspondent

Published: June 17 2008 20:00 | Last updated: June 18 2008 00:16

London’s Savile Row tailors, long synonymous with the best of British craftsmanship, have lost their centuries-old grip on the word “bespoke’’ as a new breed of retailers seeks to bring made-to-measure menswear to the masses.

The Advertising Standards Authority has dismissed a complaint that flogging suits not entirely handmade as “bespoke’’ is misleading.

On the street where the word is said to have originated and where even the most basic pin-striped ensemble can run to as much as £5,000, it will be a decision that raises even the most genteel of eyebrows."

See link for full story.

I heard a spokesman from Gieves and Hawkes on "Today" on Radio 4 talking about it this morning. He wanted the person who made the initial complaint (i.e. it wasn't them who complained) to contact the company, which would be keen to provide support leading to an appeal.

 

[Charlie Noodles]

I don't like the ruling. Even though I would never plan to own a bespoke suit...

If it's so obvious that they're not entirely handmade then they shouldn't have a problem with not rendering the term 'bespoke' meaningless and vague.

Next you could argue that 'made to measure' should be just as appropriate for 'ready to wear and measured to fit a generic 40 inch chest'. Let anyone claim that about their wares too.

I despise the grey areas and marketing. Where every claim about a product is simply a direct distraction from a major flaw...

 

[Orgetorix]

Even the phrase "entirely handmade" is misleading. It sounds like every stitch is done by hand, but even Savile Row tailors use machines for the long, straight seams, especially in trousers.

Which is not to say that the term "bespoke" isn't important and shouldn't be protected from being applied to every MTM hack job. It's just harder to define than the people in these articles make it seem.

 

[CharlestonBows]

I've found this particularly troubling recently, even here in the US. The differences between made-to-order, custom, made-to-measure, semi-bespoke & bespoke have become increasingly blurred. The average customer doesn't know the difference, and in this type of environment, guys new to the game can't tell a difference at all and don't know where to start. :eusa_doh:

For instance, I have guys come in wanting "made-to-measure". When I present them with my boxes of fabric samples and talk prices, they get this horrified look on their face and tell me how they get "custom" from a guy that comes to their office for half the price. I've resorted to calling it "true MTM", and attempt to distinguish between a "pick-a-model" MTM and our program.:rage:

All in all, the bastardization of terms like "bespoke" don't help anyone; it only confuses the consumer into thinking they're getting much more for their buck.

 

[Edward]

Admittedly, it had never occurred to me that bespoke should be solely handmade - I had assumed that a lot of the production process would be mechanised where this makes sense. (I've never been a one to prize handmade in anything in and of itself if the end result with some mechanisation is of completely equivalent quality and much cheaper). My understanding of the dividsion between MTM and bespoke is that while MTM involves a standard catalogue pattern being run up according to the customer's measurements, true bespoke is designed from scratch with patterns produced around the customer. The difference between "Make me number 4 in a 42R" and "these are the details I'd like to have..."

I'd adore to have several bespoke suits in my wardrobe, but alas at the guts of a month's salary for two pieces, I doubt I'll ever be able to afford, much less justify such an expenditure.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

a month's salary for two pieces

A month's only? You must have a considerable salary.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

damn lawyers.

bk

 

[Edward]

lol

Have they gone up recently? Last I looked, there was somewhere on SR offering a jacket and trousers for about £1300..... but that was a couple of years ago, I suppose. While I'm sure a suit at that price is a beautiful thing indeed, even if I had it, I'd be wanting about five for that kind of scratch!

Without wishing to ignorantly dismiss the value of anyone's craftsmanship, I've long suspected that there is a certain in-built premium one would have to pay for the exclusivity of owning a Saville Row suit.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

lol

Have they gone up recently? Last I looked, there was somewhere on SR offering a jacket and trousers for about £1300..... .

p'raps at Abercrombie and Fitch's outlet on the Row.

bk

 

[Dagwood]

The ruling can be found here. Seems to me that the price of the suit was one of the major factors in the decision. As the ruling notes, "no one who purchased a bespoke suit for £495 would reasonably be confused in to thinking that they were buying a suit made to the same world famous standards as one costing up to or more than ten times that much."

Had the price of the suit been higher, the decision could well have turned out differently.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Well, having heard online tailors (100 GP or so for a suit) described as "bespoke" around here, i'm not so convinced.

495 GBP or so will buy you a bespoke suit away from the Row. I don't agree that Savile Row should have a monopoly on the word, even though the word originated there. A 3-piece bespoke tweed suit at my hometown tailor costs 500 GBP. For 500 GBP you can easily get a bespoke suit which approaches the quality of Savile Row. The notion that the only good tailors reside on the Row is so absurd as to be laughable. They charge so much because 1) they need to pay their rent. just off Regent street ain't cheap! 2) people are prepared to pay the prices for what they consider a better product. (but then, people will pay similar prices for very very poor quality garments)

But i think the word should mean something: You've gone to a tailor. You've spoken to him about the suit. You've had your measurements taken. Your suit has been made by hand - even including sewing machine - cut by hand by a human. You've had fittings. There was no pre-formed pattern; the suit was made for you, not some generic person your size. Savile Row pretentiousness should not alter the meaning of a word. A Homburg hat doesn't have to be manufactured in Homburg, right? And a Frankfurter needed be made in Frankfurt.

bk

 

[Edward]

A 3-piece bespoke tweed suit at my hometown tailor costs 500 GBP.

That is tempting....

I doubt the ruling will have much impact on the Row ultimately - seems to me they already cater to the sort of customers who a] want a Saville row suit (i.e. the label as opposed to the product), and b] don't need to be bothered with trifling details such as what it actually costs...

 

[stock-guy]

hi

That is tempting....

I doubt the ruling will have much impact on the Row ultimately - seems to me they already cater to the sort of customers who a] want a Saville row suit (i.e. the label as opposed to the product), and b] don't need to be bothered with trifling details such as what it actually costs...

really that very much true

 

[Ed13]

I take some offence to the idea that people buy Saville Row for the label and cost is not a factor. While I haven't used any Saville Row tailors, when I purchase suits, sports jackets or dress trousers I now have them made for me. I have found that having bespoke clothing made (individual patterns cut for me and not standard patterns altered) I achieve a better fit with the garments.

I have tried online tailors as well as this level of tailor in person and found them to be very hit and miss. Fit and quality has never been to the same level as more quality tailors. They were at times a bit better than off the rack but once I had something better made they don't seem to ever get out of my closet anymore. I am currently using A-Man in Hong Kong and a local tailor in Toronto. A-Man runs $1500-2000 for a suit with the Toronto tailor a bit more. The quality is much better than cheaper tailors and I consider it a better value. At some point when the geography allows (extended visit) I plan to try a more upscale tailor to see what level of fit and quality can be achieved.

Cost is always a factor but I consider good quality, staple clothing items as a long term investment. I would rather save up for 1 great suit than have a few that are only OK.

I don't want to come down on anyone and I think it is good if everyone is happy with their clothing at whatever prices they find it for. It just bothers me when people take a closed minded opinion on something just because it costs more without looking at factors such as fit and quality level. People often forget that a 10% increase in quality might cost 2-3 times more money. This is true for many items we may purchase and we each need to figure out what level makes us happy.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

This story may be of interest to folks:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/530912f8-3c9b-11dd-b958-0000779fd2ac.html

See link for full story.

I am having trouble getting the link to work.

 

[in/y]

Try here:

http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage.ft?news_id=fto061720081515185430&page=2

 

[cotillion]

There was no pre-formed pattern; the suit was made for you, not some generic person your size. Savile Row pretentiousness should not alter the meaning of a word. A Homburg hat doesn't have to be manufactured in Homburg, right? And a Frankfurter needed be made in Frankfurt.

bk

Well, Bordeaux wine must be produced in the Bordeaux region of France and same with Burgundy and other French wine. I think Italians are the same with Chianti being produced only in Tuscany.

I do agree with your general point however especially in this instance but patented words can get tricky even though wine is probably a different issue (due to grapes actually tasting different if they are grown in a different region).

 

[Gilboa]

My understanding of the dividsion between MTM and bespoke is that while MTM involves a standard catalogue pattern being run up according to the customer's measurements, true bespoke is designed from scratch with patterns produced around the customer.

That is exactly how I understand the difference and that is how I use the word.

 

[Guttersnipe]

My understanding of the dividsion between MTM and bespoke is that while MTM involves a standard catalogue pattern being run up according to the customer's measurements, true bespoke is designed from scratch with patterns produced around the customer.

That is exactly how my grandfather, an apprentice tailor in his youth, and well his father, a master tailor, distinguished MTM from bespoke. The term bespoke gets thrown around a lot these days. It seems as though it's most often confused with made-to-measure. Firms like Prince Henry Tailors and The Hemrajani Bros., who make very fine garments, are not BESPOKE tailors, they make custom made-to-measure garments.

That said, I do think many people buy Savile Row for the prestige of the brand rather than quality of any specific house, but that's not a new phenomenon. From family lore I know historically, in the states, Jewish tailors were place thrifty minded gents had their suits made. Sure, their addresses tended to be not as stylish as Brooks Bros. on Madison Ave., but their work was just as good and cost much less. Even James Bond (in the novels) went off the Row to save a few bob!

There's a really great documentary on YouTube about Savile Row:

[video=youtube;WD9XVpaRcZU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD9XVpaRcZU[/video]