Crown perforations

[tonyb]

Yes, we've gone over this territory before (but then, what territory haven't we at least waved at as we passed by?), but the rising air temperatures have me once again thinking about ventilated crowns. No, not those airy, open-weave straw bodies (nothing the matter with 'em, I like 'em just fine), but those felt hats with patterned perforations in the sides of the crowns. I've seen 'em with diamond patterns and with five-pointed stars. But one thing I have yet to see is many of them. I assume that is because they were rare to start with and of the vintage examples very few survive.

Perhaps the perforations somehow made the hats less durable than their unventilated contemporaries, but I kinda doubt that. It seems likelier that the perforated lid got worn under harder conditions -- in the heat and sun, where a man would get sweaty and dirty, as would his hat. And then his missus would take the opportunity some cool autumn day to relegate the grungy old thing to the trash heap. A fanciful scenario, maybe, but ...

My unlined hats see more use as the warm weather settles in. What I'd like now is the equipment to perforate the crowns on a coupla-three of the inexpensively acquired old hats I've refurbished over the past few months. But I don't know just what that equipment is or where to obtain it. What I don't want is largish holes surrounded by metal grommets. (Nothing against those "utility" sorts of hats, either, but it's not what I have in mind here.)

Any assistance would be most appreciated.

 

[jimmy the lid]

tonyb -- Someone would have to work mighty hard to convince me that the small perforation patterns made any difference whatsoever in the comfort level of any particular lid during the warm summer months. One of the reasons that not many of these lids survive is perhaps because they just didn't really work all that well in the first place. It's an interesting marketing concept, and they sure do look swell (witness the classic Burt Lancaster/Steton Playboy ad), but in terms of practical effect, I'm not so sure...

Anyway -- good luck in your quest!

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Nevada Smith]

Perforated Crowns

....I have an Indian-War period regulation slouch hat (1880's), and a perforated 'star' decorates each side of the unlined crown. The hat has a gov. contract stamp on the sweatband, and I can only assume it's purpose was to ventilate. So at least the government thought it was a good idea, then, for issue slouches. Other hats, of course, have 'grommeted' ventilation holes (sometimes one, sometimes two), indicating to me that these hats were meant for outdoor (hunting, fishing, or adventuring) use.
I like 'em!

 

[tonyb]

Yeah, Jimmy, you're probably right. But they do look cool (by a couple of popular definitions of the term), eh? And it would be kinda fun to make something that few (if any) are making today. I have a picture in my mind -- tallish, straight-sided crown; brim just a whisker under three inches, with a narrow binding on its edge; a four-ligne ribbon and a simple bow; and, of course, those crown perforations. But then, something a bit more Stetson Playboy-like would be nice too --- almost as much crown but less brim and a half-again-wider ribbon.

Wow, Smith, an 1880s vintage lid. Now there's a treasure. What shape is it in? A picture of it would be most welcome.

 

[Mark G]

Nevada, you MUST show a picture.

Tonyb, Jimmy's probably right, they don't really help much, but they sure look cool.

 

[John in Covina]

I doubt you'll find an intact ventilator, where it has the pattern and you give the hat one pass on each side.

Check out some craft stores and places that have leather work equipment. They may have a variety of hole punches. If you can't find any as small as you want, check the designs and make one yourself from smaller size tubes or pins. If you find a material to make the cutter from then you may be able to make several punches as to arrange them in suitable pattern and mount them in a block for use and consistancy in the pattern.

[huh]

 

[feltfan]

I have bought the hole punches, but now I have to make the time...

Ventilation holes were common at the top of Stetson bowlers.
I have one and others have posted theirs. I think the reason
they were common had to do with the stiff, fine felt used in
those hats. I'd like to hear from people (JP?) who have soft
felt hats with ventilation holes. I suspect they are throwbacks
to the bowler days and that they didn't work as well on soft
felt because the holes would fill in with fur.

The punches I bought appeared to me slightly larger than
those used traditionally. I guess probably I should have
bought a grommet press.

 

[John in Covina]

I'd like to hear from people (JP?) who have soft
felt hats with ventilation holes. I suspect they are throwbacks
to the bowler days and that they didn't work as well on soft
felt because the holes would fill in with fur.

They could use a spot of the spray hat stiffener on the area of the vents to keep the felt from spreading, maybe.

 

[tonyb]

My thoughts exactly, John. Question is, does stiffener do anything to make the hat any less wearable in warm weather? You know, does it leave the felt with less "breathability"? Or does the felt really "breathe" at all?

I recently refurbished an old unlined Stratoliner. After cleaning (by a couple of different methods) and blocking and whatnot, the felt was just a bit too limp. (And it was an old, well-used, kinda floppy hat when it came my way.) So I used that Scout brand felt hat stiffener, on both sides of the brim and the inside of the crown, per the instructions on the bottle. Seems to have worked pretty well, although I wonder how it compares to that other brand (the name of which escapes me at the moment) that was also available at the local western wear store. And it was also a touch on the pricey side. I'd imagine that it's a whole lot less expensive when purchased in larger quantities. But I can't imagine having use for more than a few ounces of the stuff in the foreseeable future.

Feltfan's concern seems reasonable. Fur felt is prone to "repairing" itself. Just look at what happens to those little needle marks left behind when a sweatband is removed and the hat body "reconfigured" -- when the proportion of crown to brim is changed and the sweatband and trimmings are replaced in spots other than the ones the occupied before the hat was taken apart. With cleaning and blocking and flanging and pouncing, those holes disappear. Or so they have for me. I can envision that happening with other, still-small holes but ones large enough to clearly see light through.

 

[John in Covina]

I figure just a shot right on the holes so they don't clog up and stay open. That should not alter the breathability of the rest of the hat. A fur felt hat may absorb and evaporate sweat, but it doesn't have the greatest breathability like some modern fabrics, gortex and such. So i would think keeping the holes open for venting ould be the best plan, you would not need the stiffiner elsewheres on the hat.

 

[feltfan]

Fur felt is prone to "repairing" itself.

Hm. So maybe we DO own examples of perforated vintage hats-
they just sealed up again after a few brushings!

Let me add that my 1920s Clear Nutria hat came with a pin
in it (a vintage 14K gold pin, but...). That hole has not sealed up.
The felt on that hat, probably much like the felt on my derby,
was likely carroted with mercury and is incredibly dense. Another reason
why venting might have been more popular in the old days.

Still, I will get around to the experiment sooner or later.

 

[tonyb]

How thick a pin we talking about here? A wider gauge than your typical sewing needle, say? And where on the hat is the damage?

 

[ideaguy]

Tony: I remember seeing a thread last year with the same topic, and plenty of photos of wonderful perforated felts-in those early colors, light greens, etc...
and the concensus was ( I think ) the perforations were mostly an advertising/
marketing attempt at keeping the felt market alive during the warmer months, when most would turn to straw; and there was a discussion about how-to re: the perforations.
Offhand, I'd imagine that using a template-diamond shaped, for one-and leather punches of the size you want the hole to be-and go at it; the important thing being the punches be razor-sharp to create a smooth hole;
if you use the stiffener on the holes, I'd imagine that only spraying the inside of the felt wouldn't effect the appearance and workability of the holes on the outside-if you had to slightly enlarge them, clean them, etc.
If ya got a 7 3/8 L/O that could using some punching around, send it over...

 

[tonyb]

Well, that's the beauty of those dirty, misshapen old hats -- they can be had cheap (anyone with enough money can get those pristine jobs) and the transformations can be remarkable. And when it doesn't work out so well, what the heck, it's not like a lot of dough got wasted. And you can always try again. Turn 'em around, or even inside out. Maybe even someday figure out a way to punch perforations into the crown.

 

[thunderw21]

...I'd like to hear from people (JP?) who have soft
felt hats with ventilation holes. I suspect they are throwbacks
to the bowler days and that they didn't work as well on soft
felt because the holes would fill in with fur.

I have one vintage soft felt hat with ventilation holes in the top and it's had no problems with the holes filling in. It's a 1930s Mallory.
The felt is exceptionally thin and fine, which probably had something to do with the holes not filling in. Maybe when the felt begins to break down after much wear, but not before.

 

[Rick Blaine]

...sold on eBay last year, to someone here, just can't recall who, little help, anyone?

 

[tonyb]

Wow. Thanks, Blaine. Looks pretty darned straightforward (or straight up and down, hyuk, hyuk) to me. Looks like a home bottle capper (or something akin) could be made to work. Now, what sort of sharp pointy things to use? And how to mount them in a pattern? Hmmm ...

 

[tonyb]

Oh, and thunderw21 ...

Does that ventilation seem to do anything to, well, ventilate? You know, can you say that it does or doesn't have any discernible effect on the hat's warm-weather wearability?

 

[thunderw21]

Oh, and thunderw21 ...

Does that ventilation seem to do anything to, well, ventilate? You know, can you say that it does or doesn't have any discernible effect on the hat's warm-weather wearability?

Being a summer hat, it is cooler than normal-weight lined hats (given). I haven't worn it much in hot weather but I can say, compared to another summer Mallory without ventilation holes there doesn't seem to be much difference between the two. Though this differs according to each person.

I'm sure the ventilation holes allow any sweat to evaporate quicker than a hat without, but it doesn't do anything that is largely noticable to me.

 

[feltfan]

How thick a pin we talking about here? A wider gauge than your typical sewing needle, say? And where on the hat is the damage?

A touch wider than a sewing needle. It's one of those
old pins that has a threaded backing.

And you can very well guess where it was... front and
center crown. You can see it in the first picture here:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=176675&postcount=1