Campaign hat study from "The Wind and The Lion"

[deanglen]

Captured from "The Wind And The Lion" Great hats, circa 1904, can't vouch for thir color or the uniform accuracy, (blues? I would have expected khaki or tan but I'm not a USMC expert.)

dean

 

[plain old dave]

THIS movie is what started me on the road (pun not intended) to the Stetson Open Road....

Classic lines:

"Cap'n Jerome, United States Marine Corps. And you, Sir, are my prisoner."

"You are a very dangerous man, and your President Roosevelt is mad."

(Renders salute and large grin) "Yes, Sir."



"Frankly, Ma'am, we'd like to throw in with you."

The Steve Kanaly character is my favorite in the movie. Pure joy to see a man that loves his work.

 

[deanglen]

Afew more, side view, etc.

Other views;

dean

 

[DanielJones]

Thank you Dean, these are some great images of the Campaign Hat circa 1904. The Grandpa to the fedora and the cattleman's cowboy hat in a way. I wonder what the bow on the side of the hat looked like? This model of Campaign hat has a wider ribbon than the earlier models. I wonder if it is more like the standard bow we are used to seeing on our fedoras?
The Wind & The Lion actually was the catalyst for me as a child that inspired me to join the Marines. The formation march from the harbor to the palace in double time still gives me chills. It seems to last forever. The hats are always fabulous & I do believe the Marines had the blue shirts at that time. It depended on the time of year though. But the blue trouser with the red stripe were a main staple of the Corps. Then they were relegated to just the dress uniform.

Again, thank you Dean, your offerings are greatly appreciated!:eusa_clap Keep 'em coming my friend!

Cheers!

Dan

 

[carebear]

Daniel,

They showed that scene, from the boat to the capture of the Pasha with the Captain Jerome line "p.o. Dave" quoted, at my first "Customs and Courtesies" class at Boot in '91. Motivating stuff.

First thing I did when I got back home was track down that movie.

 

[carebear]

Oh, if I were to create an impression. This would be it. As a turn of the century Sergeant of Marines.

I should probably start with the Krag.

 

[deanglen]

If this 1904, history tells us, and the film, why are they using Krags? Should they be using the 1903 Springfield? [huh]

dean

 

[carebear]

The '03 Springfield was adopted in, what, June of that year?

Remember, the Marine Corps at the time was still primarily spread out in ship's detachments, not formed, centrally-based infantry units. Also, we were poor, just like today. "Correct" or not I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it took that long to get enough Springfields out to arm all those dispersed units.

Heck, after the transition away from the .45-70 Springfield conversion some Marines were using the 6mm 1895 Lee Navy rifle into the first part of the 20th Century (Boxer Rebellion).

 

[deanglen]

Exellent points, Matt! Thanks!

dean

 

[deanglen]

]

Thank you Dean, these are some great images of the Campaign Hat circa 1904. The Grandpa to the fedora and the cattleman's cowboy hat in a way. I wonder what the bow on the side of the hat looked like? This model of Campaign hat has a wider ribbon than the earlier models. I wonder if it is more like the standard bow we are used to seeing on our fedoras?

Dan

Dan,

I'd guess it was the sharp pointed bow that had become standard. Just a guess. The wider ribbon seems 1900+ appropriate.
Here's a 1904 Campaign hat from the SMH site, the ribbon looks about an inch wide:

Same hat, different hat cord, bow intact:

dean

 

[DanielJones]

If this 1904, history tells us, and the film, why are they using Krags? Should they be using the 1903 Springfield? [huh]

dean

Dean: Not at all. The Krag was still in use up into the 1910's. The Marines at the time usually didn't get the latest & greatest until after the Army & Navy had their supplies filled out. So it would be fairly reasonable to say that this portrayal is fairly accurate. I think some of them even had shotguns that they used, and some of the time that was a personal arm but usually it was an issued Model 97 mounted with a 17" bayonet.

Carebear: I got the same thing in my class as well back in '87. Very motivating indeed!

Cheers!

Dan

 

[DanielJones]

Dean: That looks about right. These are some great reference photos. Thanks!

Cheers!

Dan

 

[DanielJones]

The '03 Springfield was adopted in, what, June of that year?

Remember, the Marine Corps at the time was still primarily spread out in ship's detachments, not formed, centrally-based infantry units. Also, we were poor, just like today. "Correct" or not I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it took that long to get enough Springfields out to arm all those dispersed units.

Heck, after the transition away from the .45-70 Springfield conversion some Marines were using the 6mm 1895 Lee Navy rifle into the first part of the 20th Century (Boxer Rebellion).

Also like Carebear said above.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[deanglen]

1890 -1900 Marine gear

The first shot I found on the net shows marines in historical uniforms in honor of the 230th birthday of the Corps at Camp Pendelton, November 2005. Nice Campaign hat in the shot.

and this one, because it contains the kind of uniform I wear when I work (he's on the right). No hat. Too bad. There are options, but Lutheran pastors don't opt for mitres, or cardinal wide brims, etc.

dean

 

[Naphtali]

Regarding technical accuracy, weapons and uniforms, in "The Wind and the Lion," -- that is, anachronism free -- I would be surprised to detect any. The writer-director, John Millius, is obsessively thorough about these details. He was on the NRA's board of directors several years ago.

Having written that, I always wondered whether Marines should have used 6 mm Lee Navy straight pull rifles? Isn't that what Marines used at the defense/relief of the International residencies at Peking and Tientsin during the Boxer incident? Until the middle of World War II, Marines were traditionally equipped as cheaply and poorly as possible -- obsolescent weapons and insufficient quantities.

The screenplay shows Millius' quirky use of satire to best advantage. It's excellent entertainment albeit nearly completely fictitious.

 

[up196]

USMC and the Krag rifle

At the battle of Peking in August of 1900, those US Marines defending the legation were made up of ship's detachments and were armed with the 1895 Winchester-Lee then in ship's inventory.

The Marines that were part of the relief force, the Eight-Nation Alliance, carried their newly adopted Krags.

The 1903 Springfield entered USMC service in 1908, with its first combat use by Marines in Nicarauga in 1912.

 

[deanglen]

up196 has answered the question. 1908! Man, the USMC sure did have to stand in line for a while. Matt and DJ have been proven correct! Thanks everyone. Naphtali got the Peking point correct, too. Kudos all around!:eusa_clap

dean

 

[wpg]

It's as accurate as they could get it

The costume director, Dick LaMotte, is USMC vet, one of the most knowledgeable people in the business for that era, and another stickler for detail. He rounded up all the authentic uniforms (there were no repros then), and the casting director rounded up real Marines to fit them.

Yes, the rifles should be Remington-Lee straight pulls, but it was enough of an accomplishment to round up enough Krags to do these scenes. Finding that many Remington-Lee's would take a lifetime. Dick was also disappointed that he couldn't produce that correct Mills ammo belt made especially for that rifle, but sometimes you just have to submit to reality.

I took a Marine captain to see this movie at Ft Sill when it first came out. Attendance was tiny, typical of a weeknight showing, but the next night every Marine on post was there, and the theater went wild during the battles.

 

[deanglen]

wpg! Looks like your first post! Welcome! And thank you for the infor on the USMC advisor for the film! Then it was accurate to have them in blues for the palace assault, and not khakis? Good to know. I think Mr. La Motte did a terrific job! If you have any more information please feel free to share it! Glad to have you in the Lounge!

dean

 

[Pat_H]

If this 1904, history tells us, and the film, why are they using Krags? Should they be using the 1903 Springfield? [huh]

dean

Dean, the Marines didn't use the Krag. They used the Navy Lee. The Navy Lee was a 6mm straight pull weapon. It was not really successful, however, so when the Army adopted the M1903, the Navy and Marines did as well.