Campaign hat study from "The Wind and The Lion"

[DanielJones]

Off topic, yes, but like you Daniel, I find it fascinating!:eusa_clap

dean

Bully!

Cheers!

Dan

 

[deanglen]

BTW this straying off topic is entirely my fault, so if the bartenders want to take any action it should be toward me. Maybe they could move the topic to "The Golden Era", at least a historical discussion would fit better there than in the hat section. Or even better, a new military history section would be great. Call it the "Old Soldiers' Home", or "The Veterans' Table". NO! I've GOT IT! "The U.S.O." Eureka!

dean

 

[up196]

Pat_H, a common misconception . . .

To add, the number of Krags that went to the Marines is a real surprise to me. I was under the impression that it was a small number, but that's a very large number.

Indeed, that's a real illumination. I was under the impression that the Marines had a limited exposure to the Krag, but clearly this is not so. With those numbers, the Krag would really have been more significant to the Marines than the Lee. I want to thank up196 for all the detail, as I was way off in my impression on a limited use for the Krag in the USMC.

I think that the Krag in USMC service has been overlooked because it came to the Marines after the Spanish War in Cuba, where the Lee was used in taking Guantanamo and before the "Little Wars" where the '03 became famous prior to WWI. Heck, they were only used by half of the Marines at Peking.

One of my books has a partial serial number listing, and my buddies and I are always checking '98 Krags for sale against that list hoping to find a Marine one. No luck so far.

Well, all this "campaigning" has caused me to dig out a photo of my hat.

See you in the Campaign Hat Corps . . . Tom

 

[Pat_H]

A photo (U.S. Army) too good to pass up:

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/02100/02173r.jpg

 

[Harp]

Through the late 70s? I'm aware of field use, in the form of sniper rifles, in to the 60s, but not the 70s, save for some potential ship board use. Did you have ship board use in mind or other use?

'03 was still employed as sniper rifle through late 1970s.

 

[deanglen]

Such a wide ribbon on his campaign cover! Circa?

dean

 

[Pat_H]

'03 was still employed as sniper rifle through late 1970s.

USMC or Army?

I was under the impression that by the late 70s all the Army sniper rifles were either M1 Garands or M21 (sniper variant of the M14). The Marines, on the other hand, are harder to tell on this point, although they were using a sniper variant of the Remington 700 by that time. They may have used other rifles as well, however, and were still having some built on M1903 actions in the early 60s.

 

[Pat_H]

Such a wide ribbon on his campaign cover! Circa?

dean

It's hard to say, but somewhere between 1906 and 1916. There's a "13" in the number on the photo, and that might be it.

The offficers in the background appear to have a mix of styles. I'd guess that this is a M1911 hat, worn a bit off center.

 

[Pat_H]

A photo (U.S. Army) too good to pass up:

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/02100/02173r.jpg

That hat referred to above.

 

[Harp]

USMC or Army?

I was under the impression that by the late 70s all the Army sniper rifles were either M1 Garands or M21 (sniper variant of the M14). The Marines, on the other hand, are harder to tell on this point, although they were using a sniper variant of the Remington 700 by that time. They may have used other rifles as well, however, and were still having some built on M1903 actions in the early 60s.

US Army. Up to that time, the '03 still favored for past performance,
proven reliability, and prior favorable result. (M1 Garand also to late 70s
served as standard primary weapon for the Greek Army.)

 

[DOUGLAS]

Wow, What a facinating thread. Thanks for the history lesson gentlemen!

 

[Pat_H]

US Army. Up to that time, the '03 still favored for past performance,
proven reliability, and prior favorable result. (M1 Garand also to late 70s
served as standard primary weapon for the Greek Army.)

Indeed, according to at least a few, the sniper variants of the M1 carried on in to the 90s, with a few going to the first Gulf War in the hands of National Guard snipers. Lots of Guard units went directly from the M1 to the M16 in the 70, never having used the M14

 

[deanglen]

Such a peaceful looking guy, he looks like a pastor. Designed one heavenly semi-automatic rifle. All of us should recognize him.

dean

 

[Harp]

David Williams...?

 

[Pat_H]

John Garand!

 

[Teekay44]

fftopic: When I was a scuba diver we were pulling up Kraigs from the USS San Diego sunk in 1918 off Long Island. Or should I say Kraig stocks as the metal was a line of rust in the stock.

 

[up196]

Based on more research: Could these actually be the guys?

The Krag rifle in service with the US Marines (photo courtesy the Naval Historical Center, Washington Navy Yard):

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h95000/h95652.jpg

The caption for this picture on the NHC site:

Photo #: NH 95652

USS Baltimore (Cruiser # 3)

Ship's Marines in "heavy marching order", on board the cruiser during her Asiatic Fleet deployment, circa 1904-1906.
These Marines are equipped for winter expeditionary party duty, with "horseshoe" rolls containing their blankets rolled in rubber ponchos. They are armed with Krag rifles (M1898) and bayonets, and are wearing woven double loop cartridge belts.
Two of the Marines in the back row appear to be of oriental extraction.

Courtesy of the Naval Historical Foundation. Collection of Captain Nathan Sargent.

U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.

Online Image: 107KB; 740 x 530 pixels

According to the Baltimore's history on the SpanAm War site, "In the summer of 1904 BALTIMORE was attached to the European Squadron and cruised in the Mediterranean. In September she sailed from Genoa, Italy for the Asiatic Station and spent the next two year cruising in East Asian, Philippine, and Australian waters."

So if the Baltimore sailed from the Mediterranean to the Asiatic Station, where the Marines shown above were photographed, it is likely that they were aboard when the following photo was taken. In fact, the man partially visible standing on the extreme right appears to be in a Marine blue uniform with a campaign hat.

Keep in mind that the Perdicaris Incident began on May 18, 1904 and lasted until diplomatically resolved on June 21.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/i01000/i01338.jpg

The caption with this picture on the Naval Historical Center site:

Photo #: NH 101338

USS Baltimore (Cruiser # 3)

Local peddlers on board the cruiser, at Tangier, Morocco, circa May 1904.

Note the adjustable boat cradles overhead, and ventilation fittings in the hammock stowage bulwark at left.

Copied from the USS Baltimore album, page 3.

U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.

Online Image: 74KB; 740 x 505 pixels

Are the men in the first photo the actual Marines who would have been in the landing party had such force become necessary?

Baltimore was there and they were aboard!

More to come . . .

 

[deanglen]

The Marines did go ashore, historically. Didn't they?

dean

 

[Harp]

Indeed, according to at least a few, the sniper variants
of the M1 carried on in to the 90s, with a few going to the first Gulf War in the hands of National Guard snipers. Lots of Guard units went directly from the M1 to the M16 in the 70, never having used the M14

The Marines had retained the M14; recognizing its quality, and overall
worth as a sniper rifle. I have always admired the Corps and the manner
in which that organization uses what it has more effectively; while being
more adaptable to attendant circumstance. It seemed that in the wane and
wake of Vietnam, and the inevitable reductions, the Marines-understanding
that its amphibious role was dated to Inchon-had the foresight to reflect
on the Corps' future role without losing sight of basic marksmanship.
This reflected in the quality of the study papers produced by USMC officers,
whom repeatedly cited the need for a desert rifle. Although some attributed
this to "walnut stock itis," it remained that in certain regions of the world,
the M16 was easily matched by earlier manufacture. In those units where
individuals can carry their own choice, the M14 is quite often seen.
For the desert and Europe, I personally prefer an M1 Garand or M14 over
the M16 (and the AK47 is a superb soldier's weapon that takes it and more).
National Guard units, at the bottom, often are forced to make do
with leftovers. Perhaps that has changed with today's situation. Still, the
old saw that, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," certainly applies to the M1 Garand and M14 rifles.

 

[Pat_H]

The Marines had retained the M14; recognizing its quality, and overall
worth as a sniper rifle. I have always admired the Corps and the manner
in which that organization uses what it has more effectively; while being
more adaptable to attendant circumstance. It seemed that in the wane and
wake of Vietnam, and the inevitable reductions, the Marines-understanding
that its amphibious role was dated to Inchon-had the foresight to reflect
on the Corps' future role without losing sight of basic marksmanship.
This reflected in the quality of the study papers produced by USMC officers,
whom repeatedly cited the need for a desert rifle. Although some attributed
this to "walnut stock itis," it remained that in certain regions of the world,
the M16 was easily matched by earlier manufacture. In those units where
individuals can carry their own choice, the M14 is quite often seen.
For the desert and Europe, I personally prefer an M1 Garand or M14 over
the M16 (and the AK47 is a superb soldier's weapon that takes it and more).
National Guard units, at the bottom, often are forced to make do
with leftovers. Perhaps that has changed with today's situation. Still, the
old saw that, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," certainly applies to the M1 Garand and M14 rifles.

The Marines managed to rotate M14s back and forth in front line units in the Vietnam War well after the M16 shold have taken over its role. By the wars end, however, they were no longer able to do it.

What you note about the request for a rifle suitable for desert terrain is true of the Army as well. Exercises in Egypt in the 80s demonstrated a need for a rifle that, when you read the request, essentially describes the M14. Due to that, the Army actually rebuilt and designated a group of M14s for use by the "Rapid Deployment Force" in the 80s. However, when the use for those rifles came, they did not issue them out of fears that issuing a rifle to troops who hadn't trained on it would be a bad idea.

However, the M14 never really left the service. It remained a ship board rifle in the Navy, and was commonly issued to both SF troops in the Army and SEALs. Due to the ranges presented in Afghanistan, the Army begain reissuing it there, and now the rifle is quite common in the hands of designated marksmen in the Army and Marines. So, the M14 nearly left service, only to come back in. In boht Army and Marine use, the use by Designated Marksmen is official.